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I have created a CollapseUK subreddit if anyone is intereste

 
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject: I have created a CollapseUK subreddit if anyone is intereste Reply with quote

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollapseUK/

Quote:

Discussion regarding the likely collapse of industrialised civilisation from the perspective of the UK. This will entail a significant involuntary reduction in the human population level (die-off). Associated topics include climate change and the wider ecological crisis, depletion of non-renewable resources, the political and economic consequences of collapse, and the psychological difficulty of accepting and coming to terms with it.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commented thus:-

One huge difference is that the UK has a very much greater population density than the US and we import 50% of our food so growing our own could be a problem. Distribution of food in the US would be a greater problem in the US than here as the distances that food is transported there are much greater and also the US relies to a great extent on irrigated land in California. Distribution of food in the UK would be a lesser problem than not having enough to distribute.

Places like Detroit in the US have shown that people can start growing their own food even in cities and there is the allotment movement in the UK. Whether or not the allotment growers in the UK could keep hold of their produce in the face of theft by masses of starving people is a moot point. The people with arms in the cities at the moment tend to be criminals so this would again affect allotment growers but I suspect there is a limited amount of ammunition in the hands of criminals so the first people to make their own bows or crossbows and arrows, and be willing to use them, would have the most sustainable form of power. Starvation, and the prospect of it, makes people do unexpected things.

The hope for those already living in a relatively sustainable situation is that the majority of those who don't will stay in their unsustainable place waiting for aid until it is too late for them to move out and they are too weak to do so. I know that that is callous but it is about survival in the end and a larger proportion of the population will survive healthily long term if there is a high and quick initial die-off. It will be survival of the fittest in the popular version initially rather than a long term survival of the fittest in the true Darwinian sense of beings cooperating and coexisting to ensure survival of as many as possible.

Regarding the proximity of Africa and the Middle East, any stoppage of the flow of oil and its products, which would probably be on of the causes of breakdown, would greatly affect the numbers of migrants as it is the ready availability of petroleum which facilitates the crossing of the Sahara, the Med and the English Channel in large numbers. Those numbers would decrease significantly if paddle or sail power had to be relied upon. Also with worldwide food shortages the migrants would be decimated by both starvation and people along the route defending their own limited food supplies. As food supply and population stabilised worldwide there might be an upturn in numbers of migrants if there was still a folk memory of the "lands with streets paved in gold" in Europe and other places but those numbers would still be very small in comparison to number today.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the "50% food imports to the UK" Does anyone know this 50% is measured ?

By weight in tons.
By volume in cubic meters.
By monetary value.
By calorie content.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such an event will certainly unfold differently in the Uk and USA. I don't think food distribution in the US will be as difficult as you suppose. All fifty states still have freight rail service so perhaps fresh lettuce from California will be gone but the meat and potatoes and frozen peas will still be there. As to self defense from starving scavengers that certainly will be different in the US. The poor might work their way through the suburbs raiding house to house but will find more then a few suburbanites armed and willing to fight and once they get to rural America they will find that is the rule not the exception. If some do survive long enough to reach farmland they will find they have no clue about turning a crop or farm animal into a table ready meal The cows don't come with opening or microwave instructions on their ear tags.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Regarding the "50% food imports to the UK" Does anyone know this 50% is measured ?

By weight in tons.
By volume in cubic meters.
By monetary value.
By calorie content.


Probably value as it's an economic measurement and economics is all, at the moment!
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Commented thus:-

.


Thanks for joining reddit just to join my new sub, and helping to get the discussion going. I replied to it before realising it was you.
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Collapse is the wrong word. Decline is far better.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Collapse is the wrong word. Decline is far better.


It is the word that has emerged to describe whatever is going to happen.
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Vitriol



Joined: 14 Dec 2019
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's going to happen is what is happening now.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vitriol wrote:
What's going to happen is what is happening now.


Decline leading to collapse? Or even complete collapse, if that is physically possible or worse.
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We get back to the people who think we will have a slow decline or like me fast collapse Shocked

I still see barbarian hordes the Tiber running with much blood, and a lack of fine chocolate
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Vitriol



Joined: 14 Dec 2019
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonny2mad wrote:
We get back to the people who think we will have a slow decline or like me fast collapse Shocked

I still see barbarian hordes the Tiber running with much blood, and a lack of fine chocolate


Looks like you've been saying the same thing for the last 15 years...
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jonny2mad



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup because I think thats what will happen, I dont see a slow decline I think at some point not sure when, you will get a fast collapse and people will see it as a collapse not a decline Shocked
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we will continue the slow decline that we are seeing at the moment until it reaches a point where the financial and economic systems can't take it any more and we get complete collapse over a very short time. Once we reach a certain point with the financial system there will be a cascade of failures which will then impinge on manufacturing, exporting and food distribution and that will set off a complete collapse.
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