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Burglary and consequences thereof
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
There is a distinction between someone dying in a fight (particularly when they die as a result of bringing the weapon that kills them) and someone being shot in the back whilst running away.


Yes, but as the police do not respond to burglary, even shooting in the back MIGHT be tempting as a deterrent.
If someone has been burgled several times without any effective police action, then I feel that leniency should be shown towards the householder who takes drastic action.
Are you really meant to let them return time after time to help themselves ?
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue is one as to whether or not it is self defence. That is what the current law is about. If you wish to argue for the Roman position that you can kill a burglar who burgles at night then that a valid argument. However, the law as it stands says you can use reasonable force in self-defence.

That includes force that results in your attackers death.

Shooting someone running away is not self-defence.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"There where two of them your honour. One was pointing a gun at me and I feared for my life. I intended to shoot the one who was threatening me with a gun, but I missed and got the other one"
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jonny2mad



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you look at the number of times this burglar was convicted for picking on the elderly. the man who stabbed him did society a favour getting rid of him I wouldn't have minded if he shot him in the back Very Happy
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonny2mad wrote:
if you look at the number of times this burglar was convicted for picking on the elderly. the man who stabbed him did society a favour getting rid of him I wouldn't have minded if he shot him in the back Very Happy


I am inclined to agree.
Shooting an intruder in the back is not in general legal, but should IMHO, be treated a lot more leniently than is the case at present.

Causing death by dangerous driving often only results in a fine, or at worst a short spell inside. I believe that the killing of an intruder whilst running away should be treated as no more serious than killing someone on the road.

Intruder kills householder---------------Life in prison
Householder kills intruder in self defence---------No charges
Householder kills intruder, not in self defence----A fine of up to £1,000 or a short prison term in exceptional cases.

It should be remembered that those killed on the roads by careless driving are often entirely innocent and simply happened to be in the vicinity.

An intruder killed by a householder "asked for it" at least to a certain extent. They could have avoided the risk by not going burgling.

For this reason I believe that killing a burglar, when not justified by reasons of self defence, IS potentially a crime, but a less serious crime than a motoring offence that results in loss of completely innocent life.
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IRA used to shoot people in the knee rather than the back. I personally, however, think we are better off if we use the judicial system to determine guilt and punish people rather than encouraging vigilante action.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, in theory.
But back in the real world when burglary is not normally a police matter, the judiciary are a bit irrelevant.
Before someone can be tried they normally have to be arrested, burglars are not normally arrested.

There is also a generally held view that travellers are beyond the law, and that traveller camps are no go areas for the police.
There have been a number of cases where stolen vehicles have been traced to traveller camps and the police have declined to recover the stolen property.
Vigilante action would seem to be the only option in such case, though one would need a large and well armed force.
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burglary is a police matter.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/ex-foreign-legion-soldier-burglar-1428074
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Burglary is a police matter.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/ex-foreign-legion-soldier-burglar-1428074


In that case the theft was of more than £100 so the police were interested. If he had stolen less than £100 and gone back several times the police would not have been interested.

Regarding the IRA shooting people in the knee, that is OK if the recipient is being held down. If he is running away, or more importantly, running towards you, the only target to take is the centre of the body mass.
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a bit about Kneecapping in Northern Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneecapping
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Here is a bit about Kneecapping in Northern Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneecapping


Gruesome!
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
Here is a bit about Kneecapping in Northern Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneecapping


Gruesome!


kenneal - lagger wrote:
Regarding the IRA shooting people in the knee, that is OK if the recipient is being held down. If he is running away, or more importantly, running towards you, the only target to take is the centre of the body mass.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a vast difference between holding a person down then deliberately maiming them and shooting someone who is attacking you. If someone is coming towards you threatening your life you shoot at the biggest target, this is police training the world over, and that is the centre of the body as it is not so easy to miss as a limb which will be moving all over the place and is a much smaller target. Not quite so gruesome.
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
There is a vast difference between holding a person down then deliberately maiming them and shooting someone who is attacking you.

There is indeed a difference. One is self defence the other is punitive maiming.

I am simply making the point that one reading of your words indicates that it is OK to shoot someone in the knee if they are being held down.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the mayor of London is cracking down on burglars carrying knives. You should all feel safe now.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/04/09/london-mayor-sadiq-khan-enacts-knife-control-policies-to-crack-down-on-stabbing-epidemic
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