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Burglary and consequences thereof
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Burglary and consequences thereof Reply with quote

The police have to be seen to act even handedly. Well, I suppose that's their excuse.

Then there is the case of the home owner who was threatened in his own home by two men armed with a screwdriver who is now facing a murder charge because, after a scuffle, one of the intruders got stabbed and died. Maybe it's because the intruders only took less than £100 and it's not considered a crime by the police. Our homes are definitely not our castles.

This post and those following have been split from the "jihad watch" thread.
Burglary and the consequences thereof is a proper thing to talk about, but not much to do with jihad.

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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5967
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far as I am concerned, anyone who breaks into a house in the middle of the night armed with screwdriver in hand, in any right thinking world, takes full responsibility for all that may befall them and forfeits the normal rights usually afforded to citizens. It's as simple as that.

If someone broke into my house in the middle of the night to steal off me the things I have slogged my guts out to provide for myself and my family, someone would end up very badly hurt. It would not end well, one way or another.

My guess is that my attitude is typical.

None of the above is to in any way deny the existence of systemic problems that make crime of all sorts more likely as a function of poverty and other sociol-economic issues. Or, that these issues need to be addressed urgently. But, on the ground, in the individual anecdote of actual experience, we are all responsible for our actions.

So - this man died. Well, that was the chance he took. He picked the wrong house.

So, f*ck him.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It is better to be judged by twelve then carried by six."
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be surprised if he was charged. The cases where charges have been laid have tended to be after an incident when people who were victims go after those who attacked them. When you have a continuing incident where a fight ensues and the original attacker dies I would expect that this could be considered "reasonable force".
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's hope so, John.

Unfortunately, the police seem to want to \discourage people from looking after themselves in the knowledge that the police can't get there to help you because there aren't enough of them. A prosecution in a case like this would help, even if the "victim of the crime", who the police are prosecuting, gets off. The "victim" will have a year or more of worry and hassle before he knows whether or not he will be doing time. That is enough to make many people think before acting in retaliation to an intruder.

And owning a gun won't help because the intruder will be in before you know he's there and long before you can get your gun out of the cabinet and the ammunition from the other cabinet. You just have to hope that the intruder doesn't find your gun cabinet and ask for the keys.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know your rules are different and you have to go by them but my gun safe is for protecting my guns when I'm away from the house and my home defense gun only goes in it when I'm going to be away for a couple of days. As I write this I can reach out and touch it without taking my other hand off the keyboard and yes the magazine is loaded. (No children in the house.)
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adam2
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, very different rules in the UK.
Shotguns are fairly easy to obtain lawfully, but must be kept locked up when not in use.
Rifles are more difficult to obtain, and handguns effectively impossible.

In the mainland* UK, self defence* is NEVER a legitimate reason to obtain a gun.

Neither is being a member of the armed forces or an armed police officer a reason to keep a gun at home.

The law in the UK permits the use of "reasonable force" in defence of ones person or property, this could include lethal force. Unfortunately this is open to differing interpretation, and the police and the courts often seem to regard ANY force as being unreasonable.
The victim may have acted under extreme pressure and In fear of their lives, but later be subject to detailed questioning in court as to why they used the amount of force that they did.

A particular cause for complaint is that burglary has been in effect decriminalised, it is no longer investigated by the police, nor does it justify a police response at the time. The police no longer respond to burglar alarms (including the famous case of the Hatton Garden safe deposit company, where the thieves returned the NEXT DAY for more loot)

Some people have called for the wounding of a burglar to be treated in a similarly casual way !

*During the troubles in Northern Ireland, a small number of people considered to be at particular risk, WERE allowed handguns for self defence. I mention this only in the interests of accuracy, it is not relevant now.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Unfortunately this is open to differing interpretation, and the police and the courts often seem to regard ANY force as being unreasonable.

I thought something was done in the 2010-15 parliament to make things clearer. In any event the right decision has been taken by the police and CPS in respect of this case:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/06/pensioner-arrested-murder-career-burglar-told-wont-face-charges/

Quote:
Richard Osborn-Brooks, 78, faces no further action over the stabbing of Henry Vincent, a career criminal, who had broken into his home in Hither Green in south east London on Wednesday at the scene.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Yes, very different rules in the UK.
Shotguns are fairly easy to obtain lawfully, but must be kept locked up when not in use.
Rifles are more difficult to obtain, and handguns effectively impossible.

In the mainland* UK, self defence* is NEVER a legitimate reason to obtain a gun.

Neither is being a member of the armed forces or an armed police officer a reason to keep a gun at home.

The law in the UK permits the use of "reasonable force" in defence of ones person or property, this could include lethal force. Unfortunately this is open to differing interpretation, and the police and the courts often seem to regard ANY force as being unreasonable.
The victim may have acted under extreme pressure and In fear of their lives, but later be subject to detailed questioning in court as to why they used the amount of force that they did.

A particular cause for complaint is that burglary has been in effect decriminalised, it is no longer investigated by the police, nor does it justify a police response at the time. The police no longer respond to burglar alarms (including the famous case of the Hatton Garden safe deposit company, where the thieves returned the NEXT DAY for more loot)

Some people have called for the wounding of a burglar to be treated in a similarly casual way !

*During the troubles in Northern Ireland, a small number of people considered to be at particular risk, WERE allowed handguns for self defence. I mention this only in the interests of accuracy, it is not relevant now.

I would think this absurdity would be one of the major issues at the next election.If the police and courts won't protect you and your property and they won't let you defend yourself you are on a one way street to anarchy.
Anyone that wants to say I don't understand how thinks are done in Briton needs to read the London murder statistics for the last three months and realize that the way it has always been is no more.
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: weston super mare

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you used to be able to have guns for self defence like in the states I think that ended in the 1940-50s .I actually think in some circumstances that's a very good reason to have one .I knew online of a person who did some undercover journalism against islamists got very real death threats from a hate preacher who was later deported or jailed, the journalist went to the police for some sort of protection was told there was nothing they could do as they didn't have the manpower, asked whether they could get a gun for self defence was told no they couldn't . basically they were told they would investigate this persons murder if it happened the person had to leave the uk and is now living in the states .

in this case the islamists totally won because of our gun laws, I think going forward this is going to be a big factor in islamists winning on things like free speech

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/career-crook-killed-by-pensioner-didnt-deserve-to-die-say-family/ar-AAvwAfB?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp worth looking at to see a the guys long record of targeting the elderly and the scums family who are still out there . you have gangsters out in the world who now may target the 78 year old . its a good thing the 78 year old isn't being charged but will he be safe in his home . and regarding my post of the guy being interviewed for disliking Islam one why is the police pushing a narrative that Islam is good they should be neutral, and two why waste time interviewing someone for just not liking it . we have 30 thousand jihadists on the streets blokes back from fighting for isis we don't have the manpower to watch them .
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: weston super mare

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in some circumstances the pensioner or the journalist should be able to protect themselves .that humans in a pinch do have the right to try to protect their lives especially in their homes . I'm not blaming the police I blame the people in politics putting in rules for the police and also making them more political
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came across this today. Imagine this in the midlands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkxj0T5w2yM
Shocked
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adam2
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Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst I am glad to hear that no further action is to be taken against the householder who killed the burglar, I do fear for his safety.

A report in yesterdays Times stated that the ex burglar was a traveller, such groups are in effect beyond the law and may well vow to kill the householder.

One might recall the case of Tony Martin, the farmer imprisoned for shooting a thief. After Mr Martin had served his time, he was threatened with death by the extended family of the dead traveller.
The police advised that he should leave the country.
IIRC, he did not leave the country but DID have to go into hiding for fear of fatal retribution.
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a distinction between someone dying in a fight (particularly when they die as a result of bringing the weapon that kills them) and someone being shot in the back whilst running away.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
... ex burglar ...


I might be being pedantic but he should still be labelled as a burgler even if he is a dead, deceased or a late burgler. As in the blue parrot.
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