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North Korean EMP attack would wipe out America...

 
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: North Korean EMP attack would wipe out America... Reply with quote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5012655/North-Korea-wipe-90-cent-population.html

I wonder if America realises how much damage Kim could do if he has the ability to detonate a EMP bomb over America.

The most terrifying thing for me is the implosion of the nuclear power stations within a week. Scary stuff.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not normally take reports in that newspaper very seriously, however this is potentially very serious, broadly similar reports have appeared for some years in more reputable media.

A large scale EMP attack on any developed nation would in effect end the modern era, for some years at least and possibly permanently.
The immediate effect would be a regression to about 100 years ago, perhaps worse.
Many older technologies would still work as would SOME new technologies, the problem would be the limited availability of older technology equipment.

Take as an example transport.
Older road vehicles should still run for as long as fuel can be obtained, but the number of such vehicles is very limited and declines each year.
A handful of vintage aircraft might be serviceable after replacement of ignition components.
Steam railway locomotives would run as normal, but how many of those are in working order ? There would of course be no modern rail signalling.

Horses would be unaffected.

Modern communications would largely cease.

Most of the population in developed countries would perish in a few months.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a read something a few years ago saying, pretty convincingly that the nuclear-EMP risk was overblown. There was a lot of research during the cold war into EMP as a way of defeating the enemy without the infrastructure damage and radiation... But it ended up not being that effective.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The world has however changed since those days, with far more reliance on modern electronics and communications.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The group who wrote that report, iirc, had just had their funds cut.

Mandy Rice-Davies springs to mind.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern gas powered cars today would be hopeless after an EMP strike as they don't have an old style carburetor to press back into service after the computer chips get fried. But I wonder about the diesel engines out there, are they as susceptible to EMP as the gas jobs? As far as I know my diesel tractor is pretty much all mechanical except having the fuel pump shut off by turning the key off instead of the traditional off lever that ran down to the injector pump to shut off an old style diesel. So if an EMP strike wiped out my computers , phones and cars I might be able to start and run my tractor but have trouble shutting it off. A shut off valve between the fuel pump and the injector pump could be added that would do the job for maybe couple of bucks. Same thing on diesel electric locomotives, I don't think it would take long to jury rig a set of mechanical controls and get them up and running.
Here is hoping that fleet owners have thought this out and have plans and the parts in hand to keep running if some fool attacks us this way.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My diesel is computer controlled injection and will not start without it. However, I am not sure that chips are as sensitive as they used to be. I thought the main problem was induced power surges in long overhead cables blowing everything in your house connected to the grid. My parents house suffered this when a nearby power cable was struck by lightning. The fridge, video recorder and cooker were fried, but they were on holiday and my dad had unplugged every thing else.
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Potemkin Villager



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
I think a read something a few years ago saying, pretty convincingly that the nuclear-EMP risk was overblown. There was a lot of research during the cold war into EMP as a way of defeating the enemy without the infrastructure damage and radiation... But it ended up not being that effective.


There is also the ultimate capitalist weapon in the form of the neutron bomb rumored to kill people but leave property unscathed.
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Lurkalot



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irrespective of what an EMP could do the key thing to me is "if he had the ability" . What's the likelihood of NK having a delivery system that could knock out most of North America?
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely a more realistic option for the North Koreans would be to drop a EMP bomb on South Korea.

It would fry the South Korean and American military forces systems along with the whole of South Korea.

North Korea could then invade and take advantage of the chaos.

The Cold War was decades ago.

Surely we must all agree that our society is far more technologically dependent then even 10 or 20 years ago.

I would not rely on EMP studies going back to the 80's.
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raspberry-blower



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurkalot wrote:
Irrespective of what an EMP could do the key thing to me is "if he had the ability" . What's the likelihood of NK having a delivery system that could knock out most of North America?


Not great IMO. I strongly suspect a cyber attack would be a more likely bet than an EMP one.

It's the age old propaganda technique of over-hyping an enemies strengths in order to justify spending shedloads on highly dubious "defence measures" that are quite probably impractical and useless.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this mad theory that that might be the reason so many governments are anti-euthanasia. If I knew I was fading I'd want to "quit while I was ahead", allowing the next generation of Renewables - because well-paying jobs are so scarce these days - the certainty of a roof over their heads.

If I "had to go into a home" basically the banksters would clean up. The folk who actually do the work in those homes (I know a few) are paid a pittance.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Modern gas powered cars today would be hopeless after an EMP strike as they don't have an old style carburetor to press back into service after the computer chips get fried. But I wonder about the diesel engines out there, are they as susceptible to EMP as the gas jobs? As far as I know my diesel tractor is pretty much all mechanical except having the fuel pump shut off by turning the key off instead of the traditional off lever that ran down to the injector pump to shut off an old style diesel. So if an EMP strike wiped out my computers , phones and cars I might be able to start and run my tractor but have trouble shutting it off. A shut off valve between the fuel pump and the injector pump could be added that would do the job for maybe couple of bucks. Same thing on diesel electric locomotives, I don't think it would take long to jury rig a set of mechanical controls and get them up and running.
Here is hoping that fleet owners have thought this out and have plans and the parts in hand to keep running if some fool attacks us this way.


Diesel engines in older or lower technology vehicles are much less vulnerable than are gasoline/petrol engines.
The main weakness is electronically controlled fuel injection, older engines without this should be OK.
The other problem is starting the engine, the charging system will likely be killed by EMP. A few starts should be possible from the battery, but after that it could get problematic.
Hand cranking is an option as is stocking a spare alternator.
Some large stationary diesel engines start from air bottles and would be unaffected. Air starting has however fallen out of favour and is now rare.

A small minority of diesel engines, mainly military types, can be started by use of a disposable cartridge that is screwed onto an engine fitting provided for the purpose and then fired by striking with a hammer.


I doubt that modern diesel railway locomotives would be serviceable, they contain an enormous amount of sophisticated electronics.
A few vintage examples might be serviceable.
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BritDownUnder



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not just an EMP that needs to be worried about. A solar coronal mass ejection could cause similar effects. Apparently we are overdue one now. Getting spare parts at the best of times is difficult enough. I wonder if there has been enough thought given to storing spare parts within suitable EMP proof containers outside of the military in Western countries.

I think an North Korean EMP could be deterred by making a statement to the effect that an EMP that is non-negligible over any point of US sovereign territory would result in a specific megetonnage delivery of US nuclear weapons onto North Korean territory within a one hour timeframe. I think the man in charge of North Korea would get the message.

I have often thought about investing in compressed air equipment such as tools, motors and the like and the compressed air being stored and a large reservoir that is continually replenished by either a wind or hydro powered compressor.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:
Not just an EMP that needs to be worried about. A solar coronal mass ejection could cause similar effects. Apparently we are overdue one now. Getting spare parts at the best of times is difficult enough. I wonder if there has been enough thought given to storing spare parts within suitable EMP proof containers outside of the military in Western countries.---------
.


I disagree, a solar coronal mass ejection is orders of magnitude less dangerous than a man made EMP.

An EMP induces damaging voltages in very short conductors such as those within any modern appliance or vehicles that contain electronics.
These voltages will kill almost all modern electronics unless specifically hardened or stored in protected facilities.

A solar flare or CME by contrast will have zero effect on small equipment such as vehicles or household equipment.
Dangerous voltages are induced only in very long conductors, miles long at least.

The main victims will be long high voltage grid lines and the equipment connected thereto. DC voltages induced in AC lines can kill transformers, as can simple over voltage.
Any other facilities that use metallic structures miles long are at risk, telephone and telegraph lines, railway lines, and long pipelines for example.
Even very long barbed wire fences could be a risk.

A serious event could interrupt grid service for hours at the absolute minimum, and possibly for YEARS depending on the scale of the damage.

Pipe lines carrying gas or oil could become dangerously hot with sparking or arcing at the ends with risk of fire.
Dangerous voltages and currents would be induced in long railway tracks, killing any electric signalling, and probably starting fires.
Very long wire fences could have enough voltage induced to kill persons or livestock or start fires.
Long distance copper telephone or telegraph routes would be at risk, but most are now fibre optic which is usually immune.

Google the "Carrington event" for details of a previous event, before the days of large electrical grids.
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