PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

NHS vs. USA healthcare.
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:46 pm    Post subject: NHS vs. USA healthcare. Reply with quote

Having wandered off topic over on the Brexit news thread I thought it best to start over here discussing the shortcomings of our respective healthcare systems and possible futures for each.
To begin here is a copy and paste of the last two posts on it over in the news/ Brexit thread.
LJ wrote:
Quote:
Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Reply with quote
V, do you need me to show you the actual numbers in black and white?

On pretty much any health measure you care to mention, the NHS significantly outperforms the US health care system. Both in terms of average cost and average health outcomes.

But then, in fact, that is not saying very much since the US lies behind most other Western countries in terms of average health outcome and average healthcare cost per capita.

As an American, you have been brainwashed on this, as with so many, many other issues.

I responded:
Quote:
I don't propose that the UK should adopt the US system. It has many troubles and the cost is outrageous. I am merely suggesting that in a post Brexit world you Brits should be able to come to the US for say cancer treatment where time is of the essence and outcome rates better.
As to the numbers a quick search shows this about MRIs.
Quote:
We know the UK's MRI capacity is stretched compared to other countries. The UK has 6.1 MRI systems per million people, fewer than countries including Estonia and Slovenia. By comparison, the US has 38.1 scanners per million and Germany has 30.53.May 10, 2017

https://www.rcr.ac.uk/posts/nhs-must-do-more-future-proof-its-mri-capacity-say-imaging-experts
And elsewhere I find:
Quote:
The UK has fewer doctors, nurses and hospital beds than the OECD average.

As to the cost it is true that the UK spends about half as much per capita as the US and has a slightly higher life expectancy. However if you are receiving a quarter of the healthcare services your cost per unit of healthcare (a hard thing to measure) is probably higher. Also the lower expected lifespan in the US including higher infant mortality can be explained by the higher drug use in the US and the violence it creates along with higher tobacco use and obesity which the US with more disposable income per capita indulges itself with.
We could go on with this but it would be better in a healthcare thread separate from Brexit.
In the meantime Best of luck to all of you with your new government.

To move on a bit let me say I think(without hard data in hand) about one third of US spending goes to insurance companies and their stockholders for precision paper shuffling trying to pass off each bill on some other entity including malpractice insurance which is out of hand due to the weaknesses in the US civil juridical system.
For example my wife is looking at having a knee joint replaced and after first getting a referral approval (insurance paper shuffling)she went in ,had an MRI, the replacement was recommended and scheduled for late March for her convenience and they gave her a cortisone shot to hold her until then.
A letter and form promptly came in the mail wanting to know if the treatment was needed due to an accident or workplace injury looking to pass the bill off to someone else (more paper shuffling). I have that filled out and ready to send back. I'm sure there will be more, each bill tripping the same flag and generating the same form repeatedly.
I have more but will save it to keep points separate. [/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your perusal VT;

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/a-brush-with-a-notorious-cat-my-rabies-education-and-the-big-bill-that-followed.html

If the incident happened to me, it would have cost me zero pounds. Not because the UK is rabbles free, but any precautionary vaccinations are free.

Also all doctors surgeries, A&E (ER to you) will stock them and thus are efficiently distributed according to need.

Strips out the paper shufflers as you refer to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said the US system has problems. Price gouging being one of the most serious. But the system is being changed and I'm somewhat optimistic about it's future. It certainly will be a hot topic during the congressional reelection campaigns this summer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the NHS post election I suspect the Liberals fear the Conservatives will dismantle or privatize the system. I suspect that will not happen reason being with such a clear majority the Conservatives will have their way with every issue so if a program becomes pregnant the voters will know full well who the father is. To have a chance at being reelected in five years they must improve the NHS not weaken it.
Of course you can not increase service without increasing costs and those will have to be paid for by increased taxes of fees.
Their task is to improve the system in a way that the voters see as being worth the money.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7393
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Looking at the NHS post election I suspect the Liberals fear the Conservatives will dismantle or privatize the system. I suspect that will not happen reason being with such a clear majority the Conservatives will have their way with every issue so if a program becomes pregnant the voters will know full well who the father is. To have a chance at being reelected in five years they must improve the NHS not weaken it.
Of course you can not increase service without increasing costs and those will have to be paid for by increased taxes of fees.
Their task is to improve the system in a way that the voters see as being worth the money.
They can increase the service without raising taxes by removing all of the private profiteers from the system that have been introduced by both Labour and Tory administrations over the last twenty years. That, in itself, would free up considerable resources that are currently being siphoned off into private company shareholder profit.

Of course, they wont do that since most of the upper echelon of the Tory party either directly or indirectly have interests in said private company healthcare provision inside the NHS as well as outside of it. But, I agree, they will likely not dare dismantle the remaining public provision side of it any more than has already been done. At least not in this five year term.

Also, on a point of clarification - it is not the "liberals" who fear privatization of the NHS. Though, some of the more well heeled liberal-remainers (and therefore least likely to actually give shit either way) have been using fear of said privatization in the wider population as a stick to beat Leavers and the Tory party with during the Brexit farce.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
As I said the US system has problems. Price gouging being one of the most serious.


I don't think that is the most serious. Serious yes, but not the most serious.

You hit the nail on the head when you brought up the MRI scanners per million people. In the US there are more MRI's not because of need, because the need is sold and marketed

When commodities are sold, the seller will always get more stock than they need to fully take market share.

In your local supermarket, X amount of bananas will go in the bin, to achieve maximum sales.

In your local hospital , X amount of MRI time will go unused, to achieve maximum sales.

This sales and marketing analogy may seem trivial, but it masks a deeper point.

In the USA if you are a type 1 diabetic, you will get the insulin you can pay for.

In the UK if you are a type 1 diabetic, you will get the insulin you need free.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/01/us-healthcare-insulin-diabetes-jordan-williams

I'm not claiming the NHS is perfect, far from it, but the US system seems brutal in comparison.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see little evidence of unneeded and little used machines (MRI CAT scanners and the lot) In America. There is always someone in front of me and another few behind me when I get to the waiting room. I do see that they are prescribed a bit too freely to "be sure" or to leave no malpractice stone not checked off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
I see little evidence of unneeded and little used machines (MRI CAT scanners and the lot) In America. There is always someone in front of me and another few behind me when I get to the waiting room. I do see that they are prescribed a bit too freely to "be sure" or to leave no malpractice stone not checked off.


But there are plenty of type 1 diabetics who do not get their insulin. This is a basic healthcare provision and it is withheld if you cannot afford it.

Also, you have paid to be in the waiting room!

What about the people who don't get into the waiting room?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumuz1 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
I see little evidence of unneeded and little used machines (MRI CAT scanners and the lot) In America. There is always someone in front of me and another few behind me when I get to the waiting room. I do see that they are prescribed a bit too freely to "be sure" or to leave no malpractice stone not checked off.


But there are plenty of type 1 diabetics who do not get their insulin. This is a basic healthcare provision and it is withheld if you cannot afford it.

Actually that story line is being over hyped as a campaign talking point. While the price increases are real and those without prescription drug coverage (a rapidly shrinking group) The cause of the problem ,? as usual is government interference.
[quote]Drugmakers say they periodically need to raise U.S. list prices of their medications to help offset steep rebates they must offer to get them covered by insurance plans.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-healthcare-diabetes-cost/u-s-insulin-costs-per-patient-nearly-doubled-from-2012-to-2016-study-
idUSKCN1PG136

Quote:
Also, you have paid to be in the waiting room!

What about the people who don't get into the waiting room?
Everybody in America gets into the waiting room . if not their regular paid for doctor then the ER with bills they can't pay spread over those that can.

Quote:

In 1986, Congress passed the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act, which contained the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. The law requires hospitals to treat patients in need of emergency care regardless of their ability to pay, citizenship or even legal status. It applies to any hospital that takes Medicare funds, which is virtually every hospital in the country.

https://www.salon.com/2012/07/05/reagans_healthcare_mandate/
Of course it would be cheaper and more effective to let people go to the doctor before it progressed to emergency status but they will get there someday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why do people by dog insulin instead of proper insulin?

Take a look at what your Bernie has been showing potential voters stateside.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/dec/04/us-healthcare-costs-brits-reaction-nhs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernie is running for office so facts are not necessary!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 990
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then there is the legal gravy train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdydQNfAXE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Bernie is running for office so facts are not necessary!


Point taken!

However, lets go back to a couple of facts you have stated.

1/ No one fails to get medical treatment because of cost in the US.

2/ No one takes dog insulin because the price of human insulin is massively overpriced in the US.

Both these claims are demonstrably wrong.

As this thread is comparing NHS v US healthcare, the following is from the FT.

Compared with other rich countries, the US ranks at or near the bottom on life expectancy, infant mortality, adolescent pregnancy, sexually transmitted infections, drug-related mortality, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, lung disease and arthritis.

https://www.ft.com/content/05f7fa82-a315-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d

I know i'm honing in on a single point, but why do some poor people in the US take dog insulin instead of human insulin?

And, why does an uninsured American have a whopping 40% higher rate of mortality than insured Americans.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 514
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
And then there is the legal gravy train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdydQNfAXE


Nice to see citizen scientists fighting back.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5451
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know i'm honing in on a single point, but why do some poor people in the US take dog insulin instead of human insulin?

I don't know where you got this story line. Certainly not from me so I have no idea if it is factual or anything about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group