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Brexit process
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1261
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the more fetid than normal atmosphere currently permeating the brexit project I am most surprised at the total lack of comment here. Does anybody actually have a clue as to what the Infernal Market Bill is really meant to achieve? Johnson seems under huge pressure from whoever has their fingers up his sock puppet arse.

His fawning eagerness to please his master/s is not matched by his grasp of the subject and he seems impervious to the collateral damage being caused. I am amazed the dupers still do not seem to have twigged that they are getting shafted again. Shocked
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 8090
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of us, including myself, have said what they have to say and only add a new comment if significant changes occur.

It is an observed fact that we have already partly left the EU.
It is expected that we will substantially leave the EU at the end of this year.
Remainers are still hopeful of delaying, watering down, or even halting this, perhaps by declaring that leaving is in some way "illegal" or "non constitutional"
I doubt that they will succeed, but we dont know for certain until it happens.

Having left, it remains to be seen as to what extent we will still be subject to EU rules.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being subject to rules made by any given government here and any given government overseas is not, in principle, a problem.

What is problem, in principle, is where any agreement made between any given government here and any given government overseas then undemocratically ties the hands of any future government or people of this country in perpetuity.

The problem is a lack democratic sovereignty

That has always been the problem.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is going on now is what is called "hard bargaining" and if a little more of it had been employed four years ago we might have had things sorted out long ago. Unfortunately the Remainers in charge at that time had no interest in bargaining, hard or otherwise, only selling us down the river and denying the voting majority their democratic rights.

Remainers are still whining!
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: NW England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoJo got what he wanted at the last election - a clear majority and a free run.
Brexit will be in his (DC's) image, so lets see what they can negotiate.
No excuses.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
BoJo got what he wanted at the last election - a clear majority and a free run.
Brexit will be in his (DC's) image, so lets see what they can negotiate.
No excuses.
Again, it is not, in the end, about what agreement Boris Johnson negotiates. Though, that matters greatly in the short run. In the long run, it is about having the sovereign freedom to negotiate and of the democratic right of the British people to force governments to renegotiate if they don't like what has been previously agreed.

It is about democratic sovereignty. Something that Remainers have never understood. Or, perhaps more accurately, have pretended to never understand.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1261
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Some of us, including myself, have said what they have to say and only add a new comment if significant changes occur.



By your reasoning then the Infernal Market Bill is not a significant change. I am interested just what magnitude of event you might regard as a significant change worth commenting on? From here it looks as if folk are just too embarrassed and think by ignoring it that it will go away. If folk are not embarrassed then I would humbly suggest they should be.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potemkin Villager wrote:
.............. If folk are not embarrassed then I would humbly suggest they should be.


Are you not embarrassed by the actions of Remainers over the last four years in their manoeuvring to try to deny people the result of their democratic vote.

"If folk are not embarrassed then I would humbly suggest they should be."
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am totally agnostic about what either leavers or remainers in the uk do and have done. I do not live in the Uk and I am not a British citizen however I do live near the border with the north so all the outrun of the brexit saga impinges on me and my family directly.

The embarrassment to which I refer concerns a uk government which signs a withdrawl agreement after prolonged and acrimonius internal and external negotiation and later expects to be able to turn around and say well actually we did not really mean that and are now going to renege on it by rewriting bits to suit ourselves: (rather than admitting it had made a dogs dinner of the negotiations).

I shouldn't need to point out how badly this plays with all those untrustworthy Johnny foreigners and if folk believe those foreigners are of no consequence well good luck with that.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potemkin Villager wrote:
Considering the more fetid than normal atmosphere currently permeating the brexit project I am most surprised at the total lack of comment here. Does anybody actually have a clue as to what the Infernal Market Bill is really meant to achieve?


Yes.

Mick Barnes is cheesed off that The U.K. government’s decision of what happens in the U.K. internal market is nothing to do with the Irish Protocol. Goods in circulation in the U.K. internal market are no concern of the EU’s unless they enter the EU Single Market.

It is Treaty-creep ( EU speciality) to even infer that a matter of internal U.K. market goods to be consumed by consumers in the U.K. internal market should ever be somehow subsumed into the terms of the Irish Protocol or its dispute resolution mechanisms.

Mickey Barnier is even more cheesed off because where there is a boundary condition or grey area in the U.K. internal market’s interface to the EU Single Market, it is the now the U.K. government which gets to determine if it is a joint matter or if it is a matter solely for the U.K. — because of the Internal market bill.

But don't forget the bad faith on behalf of the EU.

So, the EU doesn’t like the U.K. government’s new interpretation?.
Well obviously it is going to walk away...... it can declare the Withdrawal Agreement dead and buried.....

What they have not done this ? quelle surprise.

The EU are using the ever squabbling paddies as leverage. Plain to see from the beginning.

The EU at the behest of the Paddies are bleating that we will breach international law?

Right so they can take us to the WTO? For the Internal market bill?

But what about the EU's breach of international law for banning hormone beef ( read banning American beef)
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/cases_e/ds26_e.htm

We have left the EU ( thank goodness) it's over. Nobody wants to pick up the tab for the ever squabbling Irish.

The Irish will argue in an empty room. Think Micheal O'leary and you get the picture. I'm sure he has an argument with himself in a mirror.

There has been a total lack of objective reporting on the negotiations in the UK press. So in the absence of good reporting most people switch off.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
BoJo got what he wanted at the last election - a clear majority and a free run.
Brexit will be in his (DC's) image, so lets see what they can negotiate.
No excuses.


No he never.

He had the remainer cabal, desperately trying to usurp democracy. Tony Blair briefing the EU on the best way to grind the electorate down.

The cabal are still alive and kicking.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1261
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phew for a moment I thought you were going to assert that somehow the uk was somehow excepted from all that bleating, squabbling and arguing with itself. Laughing
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potemkin Villager wrote:
Phew for a moment I thought you were going to assert that somehow the uk was somehow excepted from all that bleating, squabbling and arguing with itself. Laughing


But we are.

We have robust differences.

We will never, ever, kill each other on an industrial scale.

But let's not stop the EU from pouring petrol on a fire.

If I get time I will look for the youtube clip of Barnier and Verhofstad discussing whether to use Ireland as a tactical advantage. Disgusting.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it.

https://twitter.com/leaveeuofficial/status/1134443104336003073?lang=en

What a piece of Sh1t.

You are welcome to them.
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1352
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumuz1 wrote:
No he never.

He had the remainer cabal, desperately trying to usurp democracy. Tony Blair briefing the EU on the best way to grind the electorate down.

The cabal are still alive and kicking.


Sounds to me like you're looking for people to blame.
I've googled it - BJ and the Tories really did win a landslide majority of 80 seats.
Tony Blair and any other members of the 'remainer cabal' as you put it can say what they want - shirley that's freedom of speech ?
TB hasn't been in power since 2007.....

This is what you wanted - you should be more confident in your man.
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