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Brexit process
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
The truth is, Jones and his ilk are fifth columnist neo-liberal establishment shills like a significant portion of the PLP.


The truth is that if Owen Jones isn't inside the Labour tent, and those who think like him don't vote Labour, then Labour have no hope of winning anything at all.

The Labour Party has already defeated the blairites. The blairites know they've lost, and the worst of them have already defected to the liberal democrats. Jones is not a blairite.

There *is* a problem with people like Watson and Thornberry. That problem is that they are refusing to accept the agreed Labour policy. They have repeatedly tried to undermine Corbyn on brexit, when all Corbyn has been doing is voicing the policy agreed at the last Labour conference. That is not Corbyn's fault, unless you are blaming him for not being authoritarian enough to silence them. Although in the case of Watson, you can't even blame Corbyn for that, because Watson was directly elected by the party and Corbyn can't sack him as deputy leader.

You own loyalties and priorities seem deeply confused to me. There is only one political party capable of improving the standard of living of the working class relative to the rest of society, and that is the Labour Party. And the perennial truth is that they can only do so if they win an election, and in order to win an election in the current situation then they need to present themselves as the only party offering a way out of the brexit mess. This they are doing. Their offer of a referendum between "a credible leave option" and revoking article 50 will be enough to attract remainers in tory-lab marginals where the libdems have no chance, and also retain the votes of most labour leavers.

This election is the best chance of a genuinely reformist Labour government since the 1940s. The fact that you spend more time attacking Labour than you do attacking the tories or liberal democrats smacks of cognitive dissonance. If you really cared about the working class, you'd want a Corbyn government.
Precisely your kind of "hang-onto-nurse-for-fear-of-something-worse" bullshit was pushed in America in 2016. And the same outcome is headed our way as a consequence.


Your posts get more idiotic by the day. What on earth are you talking about?? The Labour Party is the only non-establishment option available. That does not make them "nurse". There is no alternative.

You spend your entire time going on about how other people are "establishment shills", while continuously attacking the only person who the establishment is terrified of.

Go on. Try to name one establishment figure who doesn't hate Jeremy Corbyn.
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Snail



Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 784

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They might still hate Jeremy Corbyn but I'm not sure how much they still fear him or 'his' labour party.

At the risk of butting in, does improving working class people's lives involve taking away/lessening their democratic worth and input?

Perhaps that's part of the reason for little john's irritation with you.

Brexit is now the biggest thing since sliced bread.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snail wrote:
They might still hate Jeremy Corbyn but I'm not sure how much they still fear him or 'his' labour party.


They have done everything in their power to undermine him, since the day he was elected Labour leader.

Quote:

At the risk of butting in, does improving working class people's lives involve taking away/lessening their democratic worth and input?


What else could he do to "preserve their democratic worth and input" that he is not already doing? He can't go for no deal, because his own MPs won't back him and neither will 75% of his voters. He's going to try to get a better deal than the one currently on offer, and then give the public a choice.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 944
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So no-one's voting SDP?
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
So no-one's voting SDP?


Not unless they want to waste their vote. They aren't standing in Hastings, but if there were then every vote for them helps the tories hold on to the seat.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7179
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Snail wrote:
They might still hate Jeremy Corbyn but I'm not sure how much they still fear him or 'his' labour party.


They have done everything in their power to undermine him, since the day he was elected Labour leader.

Quote:

At the risk of butting in, does improving working class people's lives involve taking away/lessening their democratic worth and input?


What else could he do to "preserve their democratic worth and input" that he is not already doing? He can't go for no deal, because his own MPs won't back him and neither will 75% of his voters. He's going to try to get a better deal than the one currently on offer, and then give the public a choice.
No he is not giving the "public a choice". You are either a bare faced liar or just another wet liberal leftie who's managed to convince himself its okay to F--k with democracy because it's in a "good cause"

Corbyn has said he is going to offer a "deal" that every man and his dog knows full well is Brino. Or Remain.

Whilst it took a bit of digging, it seems we have found your inner Biff.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:

No he is not giving the "public a choice". You are either a bare faced liar or just another wet liberal leftie who's managed to convince himself its okay to F--k with democracy because it's in a "good cause"

Corbyn has said he is going to offer a "deal" that every man and his dog knows full well is Brino. Or Remain.

Whilst it took a bit of digging, it seems we have found your inner Biff.


You didn't answer my question.

WHAT ELSE CAN HE DO?

I have asked you this on numerous occasions, and you never answer. You don't even attempt to answer.

You are bitterly criticising Corbyn for his brexit position. For that criticism to be anything more than infantile wailing on the same level as my 18 month old daughter, you need to be able to explain what else he should do.

No deal cannot be an option for Labour, because making it one would be pointless electoral suicide, and would probably destroy the party. There's also no way it would pass through Labour's policy-making system at the conference, so Corbyn literally cannot make it happen.

And he can't promise to leave with a deal either, because he can't guarantee what the EU will offer him or whether he can get it through parliament without a referendum.

SO WHAT THE F--k ELSE CAN HE DO, STEVE????

You have become the epitome of what remainers think of brexiteers. You want a unicorn. In this case, you want Labour to implement brexit in a way that is literally impossible for them to do, because it doesn't exist. You don't even know what you want Labour to do.

I am not turning into Biff Vernon. I am the realist in this discussion. If there's a crazy idealist, it is you.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What he could have done is speak to and on behalf of the millions who, after 40 years of neoliberalism, when they were finally given a vote that was going to actually matter, got out of their beds and voted in their millions. Millions who did the same thing at the EU elections. Millions who will do the same thing again at the next GE if Brexit is thwarted. Millions who, all other things being equal, would be natural Labour voters. But who, after being abandoned by the mainstream left, not only here, but across the Western world, are now turning in desperation to whatever snake oil salesman promises to burn the house down. And who can blame them

Instead, Corbyn and Labour have made a deeply cynical but, I also believe, incorrect political calculation that they are gong to be able to ignore the votes of large swathes of the working class by relying, instead, on certain sections of the ethnic minorities, alongside wet liberals and soft Tories. Meanwhile, condescendingly telling the working class that they must vote Labour cos that's as good as it gets folks.

Which is a more or less a mirror of the Democrats in 2016.

You wet, liberal left jokers have learned precisely nothing.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
What he could have done is speak to and on behalf of the millions who, after 40 years of neoliberalism, when they were finally given a vote that was going to actually f***ing matter, got out of the beds and voted in their millions. Milliuons who did the same thing at the EU elections. Milliuons who will do the same thing again at the next GE if Brexit is thwarted.


What is that supposed to actually mean, Steve? "Speaking on behalf of" doesn't mean anything.

Let's take it one step at a time.

(1) No deal cannot be an option for Labour, because making it one would be pointless electoral suicide, and would probably destroy the party. There's also no way it would pass through Labour's policy-making system at the conference, so Corbyn literally cannot make it happen.

Do you agree with (1)? If not, why not?

(2) And he can't promise to leave with a deal either, because he can't guarantee what the EU will offer him or whether he can get it through parliament without a referendum.

Do you agree with (2)? If not, why not?

If you agree with (1) and (2) then the only option left for Corbyn, apart from a straight revocation of article 50, is the exact referendum he is offering. Unless you can think of another option??

Quote:

Instead, he and Labour have made a cynical but, I also believe, incorrect political calculation that they are gong to be able to ignore the votes of large swathes of the working class by relying, instead, on certain sections of the ethnic minorities, alongside wet liberals and soft Tories.


It's not cynical. What they are doing is quite literally the only rational, non-suicidal course of action available to them. There is literally no rational justification for doing anything else at all.

Quote:

You f***ing wet, liberal left jokers have learned precisely nothing.


I have learned to ignore your idiotic ranting and personal attacks. You clearly feel terribly aggrieved, but you are also being very irrational indeed. You appear to have let your emotions run amok and given up actually thinking.

Prove me wrong. Respond to points (1) and (2) above, with evidence critical thinking.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7179
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
What he could have done is speak to and on behalf of the millions who, after 40 years of neoliberalism, when they were finally given a vote that was going to actually f***ing matter, got out of the beds and voted in their millions. Milliuons who did the same thing at the EU elections. Milliuons who will do the same thing again at the next GE if Brexit is thwarted.


What is that supposed to actually mean, Steve? "Speaking on behalf of" doesn't mean anything.

Let's take it one step at a time.

(1) No deal cannot be an option for Labour, because making it one would be pointless electoral suicide, and would probably destroy the party. There's also no way it would pass through Labour's policy-making system at the conference, so Corbyn literally cannot make it happen.

Do you agree with (1)? If not, why not?

(2) And he can't promise to leave with a deal either, because he can't guarantee what the EU will offer him or whether he can get it through parliament without a referendum.

Do you agree with (2)? If not, why not?

If you agree with (1) and (2) then the only option left for Corbyn, apart from a straight revocation of article 50, is the exact referendum he is offering. Unless you can think of another option??

Quote:

Instead, he and Labour have made a cynical but, I also believe, incorrect political calculation that they are gong to be able to ignore the votes of large swathes of the working class by relying, instead, on certain sections of the ethnic minorities, alongside wet liberals and soft Tories.


It's not cynical. What they are doing is quite literally the only rational, non-suicidal course of action available to them. There is literally no rational justification for doing anything else at all.

Quote:

You f***ing wet, liberal left jokers have learned precisely nothing.


I have learned to ignore your idiotic ranting and personal attacks. You clearly feel terribly aggrieved, but you are also being very irrational indeed. You appear to have let your emotions run amok and given up actually thinking.

Prove me wrong. Respond to points (1) and (2) above, with evidence critical thinking.
Whether Corbyn is too spineless and weak to control the PLP or is actively colluding with them is now irrelevant. It's makes no difference either way.

Labour are dead. They are f***ed. They are finished.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 690
Location: Norfolk

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corbyn can't go no deal. He will certainly lose against Farage/Johnson fighting on their own ground and you can't do much in opposition can you.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's only Johnson's and Farage's ground because the entire mainstream political class, on both sides of the house, left a gaping vacuum to be filled by them. You reap what you sow.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:


Whether Corbyn is too spineless and weak to control the PLP or is actively colluding with them is now irrelevant. It's makes no difference either way.



Any Labour leader who tried to autocratically over-rule the Labour conference would be toppled immediately, so there would be no point in Corbyn doing so. Nothing to do with moral courage, just plain old rationalism and realism.

You seem to be sliding towards blaming the PLP now, rather than just Corbyn, but the reality is that the views of the PLP on this are at least roughly representative of Labour members and potential Labour voters.

And you STILL haven't answered my question. What do else do you think Corbyn could do?

Quote:

Labour are dead. They are f***ed. They are finished.


So you keep saying, as if somehow you endlessly repeating it will make it come true. There's only one way the tories can improve their parliamentary position at the coming election, and that is by delivering a deal before October 31st. Not impossible, but don't hold your breath.

And if they don't, Corbyn will be the next Prime Minister.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
Corbyn can't go no deal. He will certainly lose against Farage/Johnson fighting on their own ground and you can't do much in opposition can you.


If the Labour Party was suicidal enough to advocate no deal as a possibility in an election manifesto, the result would be to deliver at least 50 Labour seats to the tories as Labour voters deserted en-masse to the Liberal democrats in seats the LDs are highly unlikely to win. The exact mirror of what the brexit party is likely to do to the tories if brexit doesn't happen on October 31st.

Perhaps that is what LJ actually wants: the Labour Party to commit suicide and deliver a thumping tory landslide and a right-wing brexit. If so, he's a very strange advocate for the working class.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10087
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
It's only Johnson's and Farage's ground because the entire mainstream political class, on both sides of the house, left a gaping vacuum to be filled by them. You reap what you sow.


Even if that was true, it wouldn't make any difference to the current situation. It would be electoral madness for Labour to join the brexit party and tories advocating no deal.

And nobody knows what will be reaped at the coming election, but if you forced me to bet on who will be PM after it, I'd currently put my money on Corbyn.
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