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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Pick a side Reply with quote

The old "Left" versus "Right" dichotomy is becoming meaningless and is being replaced by "Localism" versus "Globalism".

In this country, on the localist side, there is the old, English conservatism that has always been nationalist. A part of which has morphed into UKIP. Then, there is the old traditional, socialist left who have always been opposed to overbearing, anti-democratic, transnational organizations, especially neo-con capitalist ones.

On the globalist side there is the neo-con Right who care nothing for local economies, indigenous cultures or, indeed, people. They see people as just another commodity to be assigned a price and then moved around the world as profit dictates. Then, there is the liberal Left, the neo-cons' chief cultural bitch, who present the "happy" face of globalism where we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and anyone who has the temerity to object to the underlying economic reality is branded a racist and bigot.

Pick a side folks.

Just don't bullshit others and, least of all, oneself as to whose side it is that one is really on. Corbyn has yet to pick one, no matter his protestations to the contrary and is, instead, trying to straddle both camps. Until and unless he does, Labour will be annihilated at the next election as they are dismissed by both sides of their erstwhile electoral base who will either vote for the Liberals/Greens if they are Remainers or UKIP/Conservatives if they are Leavers. There SHOULD be a Left alternative for Leave voters. But, apart from a few lone voices, there isn't one and so people will vote for whoever is available that most closely aligns to their localist/globalist instincts.

And therein lies the source of the confusion in the political debate raging at the moment. Voters are being categorized, in particular by many of those on the Liberal Left, in terms of political allegiances based a now defunct "Left-Right" primary metric. And this leads to what, on the surface at least, appears to be very strange bedfellows. Nigel Farage and George Galloway sharing platforms in the EU referendum being a case in point. But, this only seems strange if one is using the old Left versus Right metric. To repeat, this new political landscape operates on a different political dimension - Localism versus Globalism.

Left versus Right is now a second order dimension.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Localism versus Globalism?

What do you define as local? 20 mile radius or Britain as opposed to EU/US
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll happily nail my colours to my barn wall.

I am committed to improving the local (rural) economy in an area that could suffer badly from Brexit. I have formed a company, spoken to local companies re: co-operation ( just about to sign a 10 year deal with one ), and have been working with an excellent retired chartered engineer who is applying for grants to supply CAD software to local schools. I'd like to see design and engineering flourish in my county, because farming isn't going to keep the younger generation here. We already have far too many retired people from all over the UK and beyond.

I sound like a Tory as I write this, but genuinely think that small people working to help depressed local economies will eventually help us all.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4272
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
I'll happily nail my colours to my barn wall.

I am committed to improving the local (rural) economy in an area that could suffer badly from Brexit. I have formed a company, spoken to local companies re: co-operation ( just about to sign a 10 year deal with one ), and have been working with an excellent retired chartered engineer who is applying for grants to supply CAD software to local schools. I'd like to see design and engineering flourish in my county, because farming isn't going to keep the younger generation here. We already have far too many retired people from all over the UK and beyond.

I sound like a Tory as I write this, but genuinely think that small people working to help depressed local economies will eventually help us all.

To keep engineers employed you need to be building or producing something that needs to be engineered. A factory of any kind is a good place as the product always needs to be improved as does the methods of production. If your not building something your young engineers will have to move to where the work is.
As to the local vs. globalism choice I think that is too simplistic. Your local economy needs access to global markets and supplies but at the same time needs protection from dumping and other countries slave labor.
Free but fair trade is the best label I can put on my position.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Catweazle wrote:
I'll happily nail my colours to my barn wall.

I am committed to improving the local (rural) economy in an area that could suffer badly from Brexit. I have formed a company, spoken to local companies re: co-operation ( just about to sign a 10 year deal with one ), and have been working with an excellent retired chartered engineer who is applying for grants to supply CAD software to local schools. I'd like to see design and engineering flourish in my county, because farming isn't going to keep the younger generation here. We already have far too many retired people from all over the UK and beyond.

I sound like a Tory as I write this, but genuinely think that small people working to help depressed local economies will eventually help us all.

To keep engineers employed you need to be building or producing something that needs to be engineered. A factory of any kind is a good place as the product always needs to be improved as does the methods of production. If your not building something your young engineers will have to move to where the work is.
As to the local vs. globalism choice I think that is too simplistic. Your local economy needs access to global markets and supplies but at the same time needs protection from dumping and other countries slave labor.
Free but fair trade is the best label I can put on my position.


I have found a local company that has a very capable but woefully underused machine shop full of grant-funded CNC machinery but with no CAD staff. I am a CNC operator and CAD designer, so I have done a deal with them to take over the running of some of their machinery. I will offer a facility to local business and education to produce components or whole assemblies for them, enabling the businesses to improve their production without huge investment and the students to turn their designs into real products.

For education / students / designers it's an extension of the "maker" movement, but instead of the common 3D printer route I'm using a 5 axis router that can make something the size of a car or larger.

I have a distribution route set up in the South East, covering London and the Home Counties. My ambition is for local people to design and produce products for "export" to the rest of the country.

It's small, but it all makes a difference.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool That sounds promising. What base material are you working with and what are some of the end products?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I shall rephrase this in more overt and transparent terms:

Compare and contrast the following:

--------------------------------

On the Left, there is the old, traditional Left (that I hail from), of the Tony Benn and, more latterly, George Galloway vintage, who are implacably opposed to transnational, overbearing, anti-democratic organisations. In particular, neo-con globalist ones. Then there is the liberal left, who are the neo-cons' chief cultural bitch and gatekeepers of the views of the Guardian reading liberal bourgeoisie. Who present the "happy" face of globalism where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya. And, if anyone has the temerity to raise local economic or cultural objections to the ugly, underlying reality of globalism, they are branded a racist and bigot. Corbyn's problem is that he is ultimately tied to the globalist agenda of the liberal left.

--------------------------------

On the Right, there is the old, traditional Right, that has always held the nation-state to be sovereign and where, latterly, it has morphed into UKIP. Then there is the neo-con, globalist Right, represented, at least on the surface, by apparently socially liberal types such as Cameron and Osbourne and, even, May. But who, in terms of the underlying economic reality, have no care whatsoever for local nation state economies or cultures or, even people. Where people are treated merely as another commodity to be assigned a price and then shunted around the word as profit dictates. And, if anyone has the temerity to raise local economic or cultural objections to the neo-cons' rapacious search for global profits, they are dismissed at best or are crushed at worst. May's problem is that she is ultimately tied to the globalist agenda of the neo-con Right.

--------------------------------

In short, the issue of Globalism versus Localism is one that transcends the issue of Left versus Right and until and unless people of goodwill on both the Left and the Right acknowledge this, the war against the neo-con, global corporations is lost.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can I choose sides from those descriptions ? I support localised business but I'm not far-left because I prefer entrepreneurs to generate wealth rather than state controlled companies.

I'm not alone.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm with you on this Cat.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are both missing the point. Or, perhaps, I have not explained it adequately. I am overtly stating that you can be either Left or Right because the left-right division lies on a second order dimension. The primary dimension that is driving the current political upheavals in the world is globalism versus localism. Which is precisely why there are responses around the world to that globalism coming from both the extreme left and the right. In other words, the unavoidable choice that faces all of us is not "left" versus "right". It is "globalism" versus "localism".

What is very telling is that when I put these points on Left wing sites I am usually labeled as a right wing racist bigot. Though, I do sense a change in the way the wind is blowing of late. If only a little. Or, when I make them on right wing sites I get, more often than not, either baffled silence or silly insults calling me a "trot" or "closet-lefty" and the like. Of course, I am not "closet" lefty. I am fully fledged Lefty. I am just a not a liberal one, that's all.

One thing is for sure, there is a massive amount of denial occurring in both the Right and the Left as to who our real enemies are. And, as long as that denial continues to exist, voters on both the left and right (in this country, at least, and probably America as well) will keep being disappointed and confused as to why the Saviour they voted for turns out to be no different to the bastard who went before.

In Europe, on the other hand, there is a real alternative to the transnational-corporatocracy in the form of Beppo Grillo's extreme left-wing Five-Star in Italy and Geert wilder's extreme right-wing Freedom Party in the Netherlands. Le Pen's Front-Nationale, on the other hand, is a synthesis of fairly extreme Left and Right. Economically, she is espousing distinctly socialist policies. Whist, on the social front, she is extremely conservative, which is typically a feature of the Right. Over here, however, people are still presented with bullshit by a body politic that is beginning to try and make all of the right localist noises, without actually wishing to change anything of the underlying globalist status quo.

Thus, as things stand, here in the UK and over the water in America, Trump will fail and Corbyn will fail (assuming Labour even has a chance in the next general election which, as things stand, is very unlikely) because they are both, in their own equal but opposite ways and despite their protestations to the contrary, still tied to a globalist system that is at the heart of what ordinary people are really pushing against. And, of course, May will undoubtedly fail since she is more tied to it than either of the above.

We have a long way to go.


Last edited by Little John on Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:03 pm; edited 3 times in total
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you have to add to those groups a small number of people who frequent sites like this one who might be to the left or the right but can see that the current paradigm is distinctly broken and rapidly on the way out. We are pragmatists who in the case of right leaners can see the benefits of some left wing policies and in the case of left leaners can see the benefits of some right wing policies.

I might have said this before but many working class people are deeply conservative socially and although they are trade unionists are to the right when it comes to things like immigration and the line that they are sold on "benefit scroungers." This is why papers like the Sun and the Daily Mail sell so many copies! This is also the reason that UKIP is doing so well. The public face of UKIP suits them down to the ground whereas Corbynism and also the liberal Labour party is an anachronism to them now.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Globalism cannot work unless things like the standard of living and property prices are globalised for all, the rich included. You cannot have third world wages in the west while you also have London property and food prices. It results in mass starvation and homelessness in the west: or it would if there weren't riots and revolutions first.

Unfortunately the rich are too cosy in their own little world and cannot see this. We are on course for another "French Revolution" for exactly the same causes and the rich are too thick to see it.
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"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 818

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I think that you have to add to those groups a small number of people who frequent sites like this one who might be to the left or the right but can see that the current paradigm is distinctly broken and rapidly on the way out. We are pragmatists who in the case of right leaners can see the benefits of some left wing policies and in the case of left leaners can see the benefits of some right wing policies.


This post sums my position up pretty much perfectly. I've done pretty well out of the current BAU paradigm but can also see that the show only has so far to run before it falls on its face.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3379

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Okay, I shall rephrase this in more overt and transparent terms:

Compare and contrast the following:

--------------------------------

On the Left, there is the old, traditional Left (that I hail from), of the Tony Benn and, more latterly, George Galloway vintage, who are implacably opposed to transnational, overbearing, anti-democratic organisations. In particular, neo-con globalist ones. Then there is the liberal left, who are the neo-cons' chief cultural bitch and gatekeepers of the views of the Guardian reading liberal bourgeoisie. Who present the "happy" face of globalism where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya. And, if anyone has the temerity to raise local economic or cultural objections to the ugly, underlying reality of globalism, they are branded a racist and bigot. Corbyn's problem is that he is ultimately tied to the globalist agenda of the liberal left.

--------------------------------

On the Right, there is the old, traditional Right, that has always held the nation-state to be sovereign and where, latterly, it has morphed into UKIP. Then there is the neo-con, globalist Right, represented, at least on the surface, by apparently socially liberal types such as Cameron and Osbourne and, even, May. But who, in terms of the underlying economic reality, have no care whatsoever for local nation state economies or cultures or, even people. Where people are treated merely as another commodity to be assigned a price and then shunted around the word as profit dictates. And, if anyone has the temerity to raise local economic or cultural objections to the neo-cons' rapacious search for global profits, they are dismissed at best or are crushed at worst. May's problem is that she is ultimately tied to the globalist agenda of the neo-con Right.

--------------------------------

In short, the issue of Globalism versus Localism is one that transcends the issue of Left versus Right and until and unless people of goodwill on both the Left and the Right acknowledge this, the war against the neo-con, global corporations is lost.


Too much verbiage. A classic case of "less is more". How about writing so we don't have to perform acrobatics to try and grasp the meaning? Anything that needs this complexity to explain it can be simplified.

At the moment it looks similar to the problem of picking between trump and Clinton.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a thought, how about directly addressing the points? Is that simple enough for you?

On the other hand, if it really is too complicated for you understand, state which part and I will simplify it especially for you.
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