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Are you prepared for disaster?
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4796
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
IBC containers of 1000ltr or 1200 ltr are the cheapest option. Black is best for above ground storage and white for dug in below ground but you can get away with white above ground. You'll get some algal growth but we haven't found it a great problem.

If you are going to bury them we've found that filling them with water and then backfilling around them with soil is OK without using concrete lining as long as the water table is below the container. If the water table is above about quarter way up the container you would be advised to concrete the thing in as if you empty it with water around it it might float and pop out of the ground. You would need soil or concrete over the top to weigh it down.

You need to form a reinforced concrete cover to it with a manhole for access. If it's only pedestrian access 12mm rebars at 150 centres in a 150 slab with 50mm cover to the steel should last for ever although you could get away with less steel.
Another option in high water table conditions is steel straps over the tank anchored into dead-man concrete blocks or a slab of sufficient weight in the unlikely event of it being empty at the time of a flood. But think about it! If your empty water tank pops to the surface during a flood event what harm can it do? And if you did not have it full, How lousey a planner and survivor are you?
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.


Yup. Here in rainy Ireland, our below-ground tanks are often empty (and often overflowing...) - fun.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.

Yes but usually in the driest times of the year when the water table is the lowest. Unless you live in a swamp the earth cover is sufficient. If it is empty at the start of a rain storm the collection pipes should have it filled before the ground gets saturated from above.
My brother used to deliver new underground fuel tanks to gas stations. They often had a set of straps shipped with them if the tank was to be outside a paved area. They don't cost much to install and certainly do no harm.
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mr brightside



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
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Location: On the fells

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
IBC containers of 1000ltr or 1200 ltr are the cheapest option. Black is best for above ground storage and white for dug in below ground but you can get away with white above ground. You'll get some algal growth but we haven't found it a great problem.

If you are going to bury them we've found that filling them with water and then backfilling around them with soil is OK without using concrete lining as long as the water table is below the container. If the water table is above about quarter way up the container you would be advised to concrete the thing in as if you empty it with water around it it might float and pop out of the ground. You would need soil or concrete over the top to weigh it down.

You need to form a reinforced concrete cover to it with a manhole for access. If it's only pedestrian access 12mm rebars at 150 centres in a 150 slab with 50mm cover to the steel should last for ever although you could get away with less steel.


Thanks, Ken. I'm well above the water table. Buy new to avoid contamination?
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New = lots of fresh plasticiser will leach into the first few tanks full. Evil or Very Mad Maybe used is not so bad. Try http://www.dvcontainers.co.uk/category.asp?catID=5
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is quite a good article, with useful lists further down if you skip the Ireland-specific earlier section.

A Changing World Coping in a crisis

Quote:
Perhaps the bigger the crisis is the more chance we have of reshaping or building a better system altogether? Filling in the cracks just props up the toxic system. Letting it crumble and collapse could be pretty painful it would involve a grieving process.

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woodburner



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't lay your hands on most of that now, it's going to be a hell of a job to start from scratch if you are still having to work for a living. As for the reliance on masses of carbohydrates, that will give people health problems as now, but there won't be the support services to deal with it. Not that there would be many of the present troubles if it were not for the big industries' pedalling of the only way is carbs.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a disaster but just the usual thing you have to deal with. Snow on the ground for Thanksgiving? As A kid I always wondered about what the big deal was with a white Christmas. I'd never seen a green thanksgiving.
The climate may be toes up in other places but it is right on the historic schedule here.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The arctic cold has been shifted this year over Siberia. They have had record snowfall.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiksi Russia in central Siberia is at -32 C and is expected to stay that cold for at least the next 15 days. Alert Canada is at -23C. Perhaps the arctic warm spell is over.
https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/RSXX1625:1:RS
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snow hope



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cooler than recent years in my region - have has a very frosty November in N Ireland.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
If you can't lay your hands on most of that now, it's going to be a hell of a job to start from scratch if you are still having to work for a living. As for the reliance on masses of carbohydrates, that will give people health problems as now, but there won't be the support services to deal with it. Not that there would be many of the present troubles if it were not for the big industries' pedalling of the only way is carbs.


In a survival situation people are going to be burning nearer 5k calories per day than the 2k to 2.5k that they burn today so the greater calorie intake would not cause so many health problems. Whether those extra calories should come from fat, protein or carbs I don't know.

By the way, I agree with you about the new versus old IBC question. The best thing is to know the source of your container. If it comes from a food factory or was a detergent container, as most of mine are, you're on fairly safe ground.
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emordnilap



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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been said that a field worker in Ireland, pre-famine, would consume around 4,000-5,000 calories daily, mainly from spuds. Doesn't say much about longevity but if combined modern health information and techniques... Laughing
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All calories are not the same. Carbohydrates are the reason so many people today are obese and/or suffer from diabetes.

Arctic and antarctic explorers carried pemmican (high fat content) they didn't rely on carbohydrates. That needs too much on site preparation and needs water adding in most cases.
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