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Jihad Watch
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8951
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:

One of the big problems is that we have a lot of migrants fleeing from the actions of people who call themselves Muslims.


Jesus wept.

No Biff. They are fleeing from people who ARE muslims. If you call yourself a muslim and justify your actions by quoting the Quran and are trying to establish a global caliphate THEN YOU ARE A F*CKING MUSLIM.

You are the "flabby liberalism" Tony Blair attacked yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35862598

Quote:

Tony Blair has warned against "flabby liberalism" and says there needs to be a tougher centre ground approach to issues such as tackling extremism and responding to the refugee crisis.

The former UK prime minister is planning a global project to prevent extremism through education.

But he warns that too often the West can "be made to feel guilty about itself" and fails to make its case.

"We're in a situation where we have to fight back," said Mr Blair.

"The centre has become flabby and unwilling to take people on. We concede far too much. There's this idea that you're part of an elite if you think in terms of respectful tolerance towards other people. It's ridiculous," Mr Blair told the BBC.


That is you, Biff. Your agenda, all the time, is to try to make people feel guilty about fighting back against Islam. It doesn't work. Instead, it just feeds an endless cycle of unpleasantness on this forum. Everybody is sick of it.
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I can't stand Piers Morgan, this interview with Donald Trump does make some interesting points:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3504893/PIERS-MORGAN-comes-terror-isn-t-time-started-listening-seriously-Trump.html
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

I wasn't making any point. I was just providing a list, a list that I thought quite useful and worth sharing, as information is often a good basis for rational discussion.


So you're saying you can have a rational discussion without having a point, i.e. without saying anything? I think not.

In that particular post I wasn't saying anything beyond "Here is a list". That's all! If you don't want to look at the list or think it's not a useful list that's fine, it's up to you.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

Read what I actually write - don't try to over-interpret.


Once again Biff, you didn't actually say anything, as I pointed out in my post. Maybe if you did comment on the links you post, we wouldn't have to guess what particular point it is that you're 'not making'.

Correct. I didn't actually say anything beyond "Here is a list". You didn't need to guess anything. Just look at the list if you want to.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

I do think it worth seeing the Brussels attack in the wider global context and that's why the list is helpful. ... Of course the list ... does not include .... ...


So.... if you consider those other acts to be equivalent to what gets called terrorism, and as you note they are unsurprisingly not included in the list, then the list you've referred to isn't actually helpful after all, is it? Well not rationally, anyway.

I never said they were equivalent. That's a strawman. The list as I pointed out, is not a comprehensive list of people getting killed violently. It's just a list described as 'terrorism'. Lots of things, some of which I gave as examples, are often not called 'terrorism' though the effect on the victim is very similar; getting killed. If you think the list is not helpful then ignore it.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

Of course Islam is a big problem (find a religion that doesn't have its problematic aspects). One of the big problems is that we have a lot of migrants fleeing from the actions of people who call themselves Muslims. But that shows why we should not generalise about a religion.


On the contrary. The evidence you've provided suggests a correlation between islam and extremism (which causes terrorism), so yes, in this case we should generalise about it, and recognise that people fleeing here can't be allowed to bring their religion with them, or extremism and terrorism will increase here too.

The trouble there is that some people who call themselves Muslims are jolly nice decent folk who wouldn't hurt a fly and others seem determined to blow themselves up and take as many other souls with them. Many of the migrants fall into the first category and they are fleeing from those in the second category. Hence don't generalise.
One might say similar things about, for example, Christians. I know some very nice ones, but others who call themselves Christians have formed the IRA and let off bombs in Belfast and others have donned white cloaks and pointy hats and murdered black folk in America. It's unhelpful to generalise about groups that number a billion and more.
I use the term 'call themselves' Muslim/Christian or whatever because I think it is best to let folk self-define rather than attach labels on others.
I myself, for example, define myself as an atheist Christian because I do not believe in a god and yet I do think that the teachings ascribed to the alleged person known as Jesus Christ are pretty sound. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are not, in my opinion, Christians at all since they approve of killing other people, a policy never encouraged by Jesus.
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:

The trouble there is that some people who call themselves Muslims are jolly nice decent folk who wouldn't hurt a fly and others seem determined to blow themselves up and take as many other souls with them.


No, that is not 'the trouble there', unless you are muslim. Any 'jolly nice decent' muslim should be dumping their religion as fast as possible; if you don't agree, then you (still) haven't read the koran, or even taken a good look at the nasty piece of work muslims consider to be their 'holiest' man.

Just think, if I was in an islamic majority country, I'd probably be killed for saying that; and the jolly nice decent folk there would be just fine with it.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't find me defending Islam or any other religion. I think they are all bonkers. But I do know some jolly decent people who call themselves Muslims. If the Koran is as terrible as you say (and I'm happy to accept that along with the fact that there are some pretty terrible things in the Bible, which I have read) then it all goes to demonstrate how utterly bonkers these religions are - you have jolly decent folk who revere an ancient text that is terrible. Bonkers.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just popped up on some social media. I've not read the book so don't know if it's true but perhaps someone who is familiar with it can say.


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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The words are in the Quran, but their context is not understood by the people who are sharing the picture.

Of key importance is the word "innocent". Whether a person is innocent or guilty is itself determined by other parts of the Quran, where it is made very clear that refusing to submit to Islam means you are guilty. In other words what this passage actually means is this:

"Whosoever kills a good muslim (a muslim who has not committed any crimes according to Sharia law), it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of a good muslim, it shall be as if he has saved the life of all mankind."

All mankind are, at least potentially, convertible to Islam. However, if they refuse or renounce their faith in Islam then the Quran unequivocally states that they must either pay a tribute or be killed.

And the fact that things like this are passed around on social media by flabby western liberals is part of the problem. Those people do not question the content (you questioned whether it was actually in the Quran, but not whether the meaning was as it appeared). Instead, it is used to prop up existing incorrect beliefs about how Islam is really a peaceful religion. This grand, collective denial of reality is not helping one little bit. All it does is promote ignorance of the real problems and allow mainstream muslims to deny that their religion is the cause of these problems, even though it is very much the cause.

In other words, it is all just a means of continuing the same sorry appeasement instead of standing up to this evil religion.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
You won't find me defending Islam or any other religion. I think they are all bonkers. But I do know some jolly decent people who call themselves Muslims. If the Koran is as terrible as you say (and I'm happy to accept that along with the fact that there are some pretty terrible things in the Bible, which I have read) then it all goes to demonstrate how utterly bonkers these religions are - you have jolly decent folk who revere an ancient text that is terrible. Bonkers.


Anything but admit there is a serious problem with Islam in particular.

You are in denial of reality, Biff. The proof is in the pudding. The world is not full of Christians and Jews trying to blow up everybody who isn't Christian or Jewish.
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
This just popped up on some social media. I've not read the book so don't know if it's true but perhaps someone who is familiar with it can say.



next verse quran5/33

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

As undercover said 32 is talking about believers, because someone who doesn't believe is not a innocent person
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed

Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.

[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


Shocked and so it goes on http://quran.com/5/33
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a twitter feed to follow if interested in Muslims who think killing can be justified.
https://twitter.com/TheAFMA
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, that's not interesting. It's just another link posted by you in place of a proper response.

The fact that some muslims are not terrorists is not relevant to this discussion, because nobody is saying all muslims are terrorists. Apart from anything else, a lot of people who call themselves muslims just come from a muslim community but in reality are about as Islamic as you are Christian.

What you've posted is an implied strawman, which is absolutely typical of the way you conduct this discussion.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How not to talk about Muslims after a Fringe Terrorist Group attacks.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/how-not-to-talk-about-muslims-after-a-fringe-terrorist-group-attacks.html
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
How not to talk about Muslims after a Fringe Terrorist Group attacks.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/how-not-to-talk-about-muslims-after-a-fringe-terrorist-group-attacks.html


Linking to more ignorant nonsense, Biff?

Quote:

1. Stop calling Daesh “the Islamic State.” They are manipulating you. They aren’t a state and they aren’t Islamic. If some fringe cult took over some villages in Mexico and called itself “The Vatican,” then committed terrorism, would journalists blithely say on air “Today, the Vatican killed 39 and injured 200 with a bomb belt”? People in the Middle East hate this small desert fringe, and they term it “Daesh,” not “Islamic.” They should know.


Hmmm. Let's see. What does "Daesh" mean? It is an acronym for "al-Dawla al-Islamiya al-Iraq al-Sham", which translates as "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

Oops. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

There is no such thing as “Islamic” terrorism.


Of course not. And there's no such thing as Christian creationism or Jewish expansionism or Tory selfishness and greed. Nope. Saying there's no such thing makes it magically disappear. POOF!

I can't be bothered to read the rest of this nonsense.
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12202181/Angry-backlash-against-Croydon-man-who-confonted-Muslim-woman-and-told-her-to-explain-Brussels.html

This woman should have been able to explain Brussels very simply. She is a Muslim, and could have diffused this easily......
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