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Iran Watch...
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10416
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
You lot are hilarious.

I simply cannot believe I am having to spell this shit out.


Erm. Ho-hum.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7531
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Little John wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Does it ever occur to you Little John that you are more then a bit paranoid?
Would the US government lie to the world (not just you) if it served some purpose for them? Yes, just like every other government out there both liberal and conservative and Capitalist and socialist. But if there is no advantage to be gained by a lie when the true facts will serve better and hold up under critical inspection why would they not go with the truth.
The moment that plane went down I expected it was an accidental shoot down by the anti aircraft forces in place around Tehran. They had the position , ability and were on a razor edge of alert. For anybody else to hit that plane at that point and position requires a lot of improbable logistics without a motive worth the effort.
Perhaps some alternate theory will win out in the end but I severely doubt it.
And there we have it folks. The power of a lifetime of brainwashing.
But now we have this.
https://apnews.com/21f4a92a2dfbc38581719664bdf6f38e
Quote:
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran on Saturday acknowledged that its armed forces “unintentionally” shot down the Ukrainian jetliner that crashed earlier this week, killing all 176 aboard, after the government had repeatedly denied Western accusations that it was responsible.

Just whose brain has been washed?
Yes, that's called evidence.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5554
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No that is a confession.The cell phone videos from the ground and the satellite detections of missile launches by the pentagon as well as the shrapnel holes in the planes wings were evidence.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51077897

Quote:

UK ambassador arrested in Tehran
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Vitriol



Joined: 14 Dec 2019
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
accidentally or intentionally as a way of hitting back at the western world in general.


Why kill your own citizens to hit back at the western world in general?


Most of the passengers were Canadian.


Most were actually Iranian.

Not a good period for Iran. Wonder whether they will be tempted into more retaliatory actions now, to try and distract their domestic unrest.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/iran-and-other-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix-f9d1f94a260c

Quote:
Iran, And Other Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix

Caitlin Johnstone

The greatest asset of the propagandists is your belief that you haven’t been propagandized.

"Hi my name’s Maga McBootlick. I fight the establishment by cheerleading for the US President, I oppose war by supporting the same Middle East agendas as Dick Cheney, John Bolton and Bill Kristol, and I love the Iranian people so much I want to kill them with starvation sanctions."

I can’t believe I’ve spent a week and a half arguing with Republicans who insist that assassinating a nation’s top general is perfectly sane and normal and fine. No, idiots. No.

Trump supporters keep telling me how upset they are that I’m dedicating so much time and energy to criticizing his Iran warmongering. The mental irritation you experience when I criticize your president is called cognitive dissonance. It’s what being wrong feels like.

Note to the US government: you don’t get to murder civilians with starvation sanctions and then have anyone believe you when you tell them you stand with them. Not a thing.

When you target civilians with sanctions with the stated goal of making them so miserable and hungry that they rise up against their government, and then openly urge them to rise up against their government, you are trying to start a civil war. That is the thing you are doing. People should really think hard about exactly what that means.

The US Secretary of State has openly admitted that Iran is being sanctioned not so that its government will change its behavior, but so that the Iranian people will force their government out. This cannot happen without coordinated violence against Tehran, i.e. civil war.

We’ve known for years that the CIA has been ramping up covert operations within Iran. Concerns that the CIA is working to foment violence and disorder in Tehran are not idle speculation. It is most definitely happening. Only question is how and to what extent.

Anyone who’s ever escaped from a relationship with a sociopath can see these “We stand with the people of Nation X in rising up against their government” scripts for the imperialist manipulations they are. It’s amazing how many of the people with deep understandings of manipulation are survivors of this type of abuse.

After Iran admitted that it downed the Ukrainian plane there were a bunch of establishment narrative managers running around online going “Ha! See?? This proves it’s wrong to doubt us on these things!” Doesn’t work that way, sugar tits. The US government has an extensive history of using lies, propaganda and false flags to manufacture consent for military agendas; skepticism until there’s hard proof is the only sane position in a post-Iraq invasion world.

Always, always remain skeptical of such assertions until clear, doubtless proof is provided. Never let them shame you out of doing so. Their giant “See, we didn’t lie this time!” social media parade actually proves the rule.

All the justifications you’ve heard for Trump’s Iran warmongering have been premised upon the assumption that it is entirely right and appropriate for the United States to have a military presence on the other side of the planet in nations that don’t want them to be there.

When I say the US government’s claims justifying Soleimani’s assassination are unproven, I always get people telling me that’s because the evidence is classified. Secret, invisible, hypothetical evidence is not evidence, guys. Not as far as public scrutiny is concerned. I’ve explained this to Russiagaters as well.

If a known compulsive liar who has deceived you many times in the past told you it was very, very important that you go and murder your neighbor, but he couldn’t show you the evidence proving his claim, would you take him at his word and get your gun? No? Then don’t trust the US government when it tells you something happened requiring military action.

Anyone who says a war with Iran could be easily won is either (A) making claims on a subject they know nothing about, or (B) advocating the use of nuclear weapons. Either way they’re not someone you should trust with your car keys.

Maybe the dumbest thing in all US politics is the way liberals tend to cheer for regime change in Syria while conservatives tend to support regime change in Iran. In reality it’s the same agenda: they’re just arguing over which government to oust first. Amazing propaganda trick.

Whenever I’m writing against US regime change in Syria it’s a guarantee I’ll spend the day arguing with liberals. Whenever I’m writing against US regime change in Iran it’s guaranteed I’ll spend it arguing with conservatives. Always. Every single time.

When the US was preparing to announce its withdrawal from the JCPOA in May 2018 I tweeted, “Make a note of which Trump supporters who were dutiful skeptics about Russiagate and Syria turn into worthless foam-brained sheep about Iran.” Can’t say the results have been especially surprising. Party loyalism is dementia.

When analysts accurately predict US military aggression will unite disparate factions against the US, it’s not some kind of psychic magic trick. They’re using the same common sense which says that if you act like an asshole at the pub, everyone in the pub will think you’re an asshole.

Those who advance war propaganda are participating in that war just as much as the people who actually go and fight in it. They’re just playing a much safer and more cowardly role.

Trump supporters acting like he’s been vindicated for assassinating Soleimani because it hasn’t started a full-scale war are like an abusive husband telling his wife “See? It was fine! Bet you feel stupid for yelling now!” after downing a 12 pack and taking the kids on the freeway in the back of the pickup truck.

USA: Want to stop being a sovereign nation?

Iraq: No. Get the F--k out.

USA: [invades, kills a million Iraqis, kills Saddam, tears apart Ba’ath party, tears apart Iraq’s military, installs puppet regime, declares Iraq and USA “partners”] How about now?

Iraq: No. Get the F--k out.

Assassinating a nation’s top general after arbitrarily designating him a “terrorist” is just assassinating a nation’s top general with a thin layer of narrative overlay. Yet such is the power of narrative that Trumpites have been regurgitating this exact justification like it’s a real thing.

Every single time Trump does something evil I get drooling QAnon cultists telling me to calm down and trust the plan. Every single time, without a single, solitary exception. And his actions get more and more depraved. This is what a propaganda construct looks like.

No analyst can name an appropriately comparable US general whose assassination would enrage the public like Soleimani’s did in Iran. This is because hardly any living American can remember a time when their military could be said to have rescued them from an existential threat.

Whenever I criticize the US president his supporters come up babbling about how Hillary would have been worse. So? Believing Trump is good because Hillary Clinton is bad is like believing cancer is good because heart disease is bad.

America’s two-party sock puppet show is always fake. Always. Buying into any part of it supports the whole fake show. “But the red puppet acts different from the blue puppet!” Yes. That’s how puppet shows work. Characters act different. Cheering for either is endorsing the lie.

You can absolutely make the case that one of the puppets acts less reprehensibly than the other during the show. But the show always ends the same: everyone in the audience gets a punch in the mouth and has to give all their money to the military.

The only real “welfare queen” that’s ever existed is the US military. Not even Reagan’s most dementia-addled fantasies ever dreamed up a welfare moocher this minted.

MSM can create false narratives without even speaking them explicitly, just by giving a certain impression. After the Iraq invasion 70% of Americans still believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11, just because reporters and politicians kept mentioning the two in the same breath.

Schrodinger’s superpower: America is simultaneously (A) an unstoppable military and economic force that ought to be in charge of the entire world, and (B) the poor widdle victim of a big, mean bully on the other side of the planet.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11529
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am amazed that I am the first, twenty four hours after the event, to post anything about the admission by the Iranian government that it was them, or rather one of their Revolutionary Guards, who shot the plane down. Or was that just BBC propaganda or lies?
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5554
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted it up thread Saturday. There was not much that needed saying about it as the possibility had already had a through chewing over.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I am amazed that I am the first, twenty four hours after the event, to post anything about the admission by the Iranian government that it was them, or rather one of their Revolutionary Guards, who shot the plane down. Or was that just BBC propaganda or lies?


I am amazed nobody has asked who pulled the trigger and why? This does not seem to have been a simple point and fire job letting off a heat seeker. I have seen some talk about the plane being mistaken for a cruise missile, which seems most unlikely, unless you believe the rumours swilling around that the launch system had been hacked.
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ReserveGrowthRulz



Joined: 19 May 2019
Posts: 496
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I am amazed that I am the first, twenty four hours after the event, to post anything about the admission by the Iranian government that it was them, or rather one of their Revolutionary Guards, who shot the plane down. Or was that just BBC propaganda or lies?


Conspiracy nutters don't want the facts to muddy the waters. So stop immediately!
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potemkin Villager wrote:

I am amazed nobody has asked who pulled the trigger and why? .

Oh some colonel who thought he was punching his ticket for a promotion to General. Just who makes no difference as he is on his way to the chopping block. The why is probably no more then fear of failure if he let the first US incoming strike go unchallenged or intercepted.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or the guided missile was knobbled or plane spoofed.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
Or the guided missile was knobbled or plane spoofed.

Not following you Fuzzy. The plane looked like a plane. Do you think the US made it look like a cruise missile? The surface to air missiles worked just as intended so no hacking there.
How do you mistake something 100 ft wide by 120 ft. long for something 2 feet in diameter by 20 ft. long. (air speeds for both are around 500mph)
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All surface to air missiles are guided by something
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
All surface to air missiles are guided by something

Yes of course. Usually radar or heat seeking or a combination of both. But the radar and heat signals from a 140,000 lb aircraft with the engines churning out enough heat for it to climb would be 30 times the signal from a cruise missile.
If you think the USA fooled the Iranians into knocking down that plane say so and then tell us why the USA would want to do that and how.
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