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Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future Reply with quote

I posted this on reddit's biggest politics subreddit earlier today. Thought I might as well repost it here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ebwy9o/selfpost_identity_politics_class_warfare_and/

The old left-right political axis is meaningless, and the “political compass” view which tried to fix it by adding an “authoritarian-libertarian” axis is no longer fit for purpose either. In order to understand why Labour lost on thursday, I think we need to think in terms of these two:

(1) the economic left-right / class warfare axis. This is about rich and poor – economic inequality. This is getting worse all the time in the western world. The rich are getting richer, and the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger. It's also getting disproportionately bigger for anyone under the age of 35 – the people who are locked out of the housing market, can't afford tuition fees, etc... In other words, there are plenty more votes available for Labour in the future on this axis. And in fact, there were plenty more votes available on thursday for Labour, but they were lost because vast numbers of working class people in “red wall” seats switched to the tories, even though it looks like this was against their own economic interests. Why? because of the other axis.

(2) the identity-politics left-right axis. This is about other percieved forms of inequality. All the things that “social justice warriors” rant on about. Note that quite a lot of the most vocal SJWs aren't at the bottom of the economic heap. They tend to be middle class rather than working class, and university educated rather than leaving school at 16. They are pro-EU and globalisation, think that immigration is best thing since sliced bread, they self-identify as feminists and think LGBT rights are a major issue. Unlike the first axis, there are no new votes available for Labour on this axis. That is why Labour was trounced on thursday.

The lifelong Labour voters who switched to the tories are on the left of the first axis – many of them on the extreme left. They had no problem at all with Labour's economic policies. But they are on the right of second axis. They are working class, they don't like immigration because they are the ones paying the highest price for it, and they've got no time for feminists who endlessly whinge about how western society is a damnable “patriarchy” at the same time as remaining silent about the real patriarchy of Islam. In fact, a lot of them live in the very same English towns where elements of the muslim community systematically abused vulnerable working class white girls, and they are very much aware that the IP-left are the main reason why that problem has been allowed to get so out of control. Working class males in the UK do not benefit from any “patriarchy”. Most of all, those people, who voted for brexit, were not willing to allow their voices to be trampled into the dirt yet again. They voted against their own economic interests because they had had enough of the IP-left treating them like ignorant morons whose opinions don't matter. And yes, Emily Thornberry really did call them that.

The tide of western politics has conclusively turned against the IP-left, and the reason is that even though those battles have largely been already won, the SJWs want more. They are trying to create a society where positive discrimination in favour of women and minorities actually works against the interest of working class white people, especially men. That is why Leave won the referendum, it's why Trump beat Clinton and why Boris Johnson is now free to rule the UK however he pleases.

The IP-left is now trying to double down on their strategic mistake. They want the Labour Party to swing even more towards their position, even though there are no more votes to be had. Nobody on the IP-left voted tory on thursday. They were the ones who stayed loyal to Labour, or voted for the libdems. If Labour is going to claw its way back to power, the IP-left needs to recognise that it was conclusively defeated last week. Labour needs to win back those voters on the economic left who can't stand the IP-left. In other words, the IP-left needs to finally put a sock in it. Stop trying to turn the western world into a matriarchy and admit that immigration is actually really bad news for many working class communities. If they do not do this – if the new Labour leader is a champion of the IP-left like Emily Thornberry or Jess Phillips – then we are looking at at least ten years of tory rule, and maybe more.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:


(1) the economic left-right / class warfare axis. This is about rich and poor – economic inequality. This is getting worse all the time in the western world. The rich are getting richer, and the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger. It's also getting disproportionately bigger for anyone under the age of 35 – the people who are locked out of the housing market, can't afford tuition fees, etc... In other words, there are plenty more votes available for Labour in the future on this axis. And in fact, there were plenty more votes available on thursday for Labour, but they were lost because vast numbers of working class people in “red wall” seats switched to the tories, even though it looks like this was against their own economic interests. Why? because of the other axis.


No it was not "against their own economic interests". Only a bourgeois, fundamentally antidemocratic "analysis" could draw such a conclusion. The reason it was not against their own economic interest is because, in the absence of their votes counting, there is no such thing as politics. There is only raw naked power, who wields it and who must endure it and it matters not one jot, in the end, which master promises his slaves more jam than the other. They are still slaves. People understand this, which is why Labour and the lib dems were slaughtered.

Quote:
(2) the identity-politics left-right axis. This is about other percieved forms of inequality. All the things that “social justice warriors” rant on about. Note that quite a lot of the most vocal SJWs aren't at the bottom of the economic heap. They tend to be middle class rather than working class, and university educated rather than leaving school at 16. They are pro-EU and globalisation, think that immigration is best thing since sliced bread, they self-identify as feminists and think LGBT rights are a major issue. Unlike the first axis, there are no new votes available for Labour on this axis. That is why Labour was trounced on thursday.

The lifelong Labour voters who switched to the tories are on the left of the first axis – many of them on the extreme left. They had no problem at all with Labour's economic policies. But they are on the right of second axis. They are working class, they don't like immigration because they are the ones paying the highest price for it, and they've got no time for feminists who endlessly whinge about how western society is a damnable “patriarchy” at the same time as remaining silent about the real patriarchy of Islam. In fact, a lot of them live in the very same English towns where elements of the muslim community systematically abused vulnerable working class white girls, and they are very much aware that the IP-left are the main reason why that problem has been allowed to get so out of control. Working class males in the UK do not benefit from any “patriarchy”. Most of all, those people, who voted for brexit, were not willing to allow their voices to be trampled into the dirt yet again. They voted against their own economic interests because they had had enough of the IP-left treating them like ignorant morons whose opinions don't matter. And yes, Emily Thornberry really did call them that.

The tide of western politics has conclusively turned against the IP-left, and the reason is that even though those battles have largely been already won, the SJWs want more. They are trying to create a society where positive discrimination in favour of women and minorities actually works against the interest of working class white people, especially men. That is why Leave won the referendum, it's why Trump beat Clinton and why Boris Johnson is now free to rule the UK however he pleases.

The IP-left is now trying to double down on their strategic mistake. They want the Labour Party to swing even more towards their position, even though there are no more votes to be had. Nobody on the IP-left voted tory on thursday. They were the ones who stayed loyal to Labour, or voted for the libdems. If Labour is going to claw its way back to power, the IP-left needs to recognise that it was conclusively defeated last week. Labour needs to win back those voters on the economic left who can't stand the IP-left. In other words, the IP-left needs to finally put a sock in it. Stop trying to turn the western world into a matriarchy and admit that immigration is actually really bad news for many working class communities. If they do not do this – if the new Labour leader is a champion of the IP-left like Emily Thornberry or Jess Phillips – then we are looking at at least ten years of tory rule, and maybe more.


So, implicit in what you have just said is that (2) is about economics. That is to say, people have real and legitimate economic grievances that the liberal left have chosen to make a culture war out of in order to not have to address those grievances. All that the working class have done is to respond in kind with a giant "F--k off" in this election. In other words, these "culture wars" are all about economics, underneath. In that regard, Marx was right. It's starts with geography, leading to economy leading to culture. The causal arrow does not run in the opposite direction. Or, at least, not for very long.
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have had positive discrimination for immigrants since the Windrush arrived 80 years ago. NHS, TFL, railways??

Nowadays it's our honoured military that are given preferential jobs - Mail, telecoms etc. The people who are mercenaries with early work pensions, who killed people for the politicians. Or the blessed firemen etc.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future Reply with quote

Little John wrote:


So, implicit in what you have just said is that (2) is about economics. That is to say, people have real and legitimate economic grievances that the liberal left have chosen to make a culture war out of in order to not have to address those grievances. All that the working class have done is to respond in kind with a giant "F--k off" in this election. In other words, these "culture wars" are all about economics, underneath. In that regard, Marx was right. It's starts with geography, leading to economy leading to culture. The causal arrow does not run in the opposite direction. Or, at least, not for very long.


I'll have to mull that over but yes, basically.
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BritDownUnder



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Labour made a cynical calculation. That you could act anti-Semitic, or at least not deny it too strongly, to get the Muslim vote buttoned up. That you can make a few noises about NHS and Tory-spending-cuts and go both ways on Brexit and get the white working class vote.

It backfired. The non-Muslim Northern England constituencies did not buy it this time. Scotland has not been buying it for a while. I am surprised that South Wales is still buying it but as Neil Kinnock said you could put a red rosette on a donkey in Islwyn and it would get elected.

Someone said that you can fool some of the people some of the time. Labour have learned their lesson. Maybe they should drop being more concerned for welfare of people outside of the UK and become more concerned for people inside of the UK and they will get somewhere.
I am not a natural socialist but I would be happy for a big dose of socialism if Labour stand up for the people that they claim to represent ... or used to.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:
Labour made a cynical calculation. That you could act anti-Semitic, or at least not deny it too strongly, to get the Muslim vote buttoned up. That you can make a few noises about NHS and Tory-spending-cuts and go both ways on Brexit and get the white working class vote.

It backfired. The non-Muslim Northern England constituencies did not buy it this time. Scotland has not been buying it for a while. I am surprised that South Wales is still buying it but as Neil Kinnock said you could put a red rosette on a donkey in Islwyn and it would get elected.

Someone said that you can fool some of the people some of the time. Labour have learned their lesson. Maybe they should drop being more concerned for welfare of people outside of the UK and become more concerned for people inside of the UK and they will get somewhere.
I am not a natural socialist but I would be happy for a big dose of socialism if Labour stand up for the people that they claim to represent ... or used to.


1) you have no material evidence of antisemitism endemic in the labour party. None. And repeating the bullshit here does not change that. Pack it in, it's pathetic

2) You have no evidence that the above groundless smears of antisemitism had any effect on the vote for Labour. Present that evidence here or retract the assertion. Or, I will call it out as more bullshit.
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK, the jewish thing is just the city of london trying to smear the party that wants to take their toys away. They choose to join israel politics with racism, as a strategy. It is pointless to northern [ex] labour voters.
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding point 2 LJ we do know that support for labour among jews collapsed to less than 10 per cent at this election which hurt labour in a few marginal seats.

All the reports from people canvassing suggest that anti semitism was a factor in why people were turning away from labour.

The ns politics team just before ge reported that it was regularly popping up on the door whilst canvassing across the country.

Even if you think it was all smears it did have an impact. How labour respond to the looming equalities commission report will huge. It is expected to be bad for labour.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
BritDownUnder wrote:
Labour made a cynical calculation. That you could act anti-Semitic, or at least not deny it too strongly, to get the Muslim vote buttoned up. That you can make a few noises about NHS and Tory-spending-cuts and go both ways on Brexit and get the white working class vote.

It backfired. The non-Muslim Northern England constituencies did not buy it this time. Scotland has not been buying it for a while. I am surprised that South Wales is still buying it but as Neil Kinnock said you could put a red rosette on a donkey in Islwyn and it would get elected.

Someone said that you can fool some of the people some of the time. Labour have learned their lesson. Maybe they should drop being more concerned for welfare of people outside of the UK and become more concerned for people inside of the UK and they will get somewhere.
I am not a natural socialist but I would be happy for a big dose of socialism if Labour stand up for the people that they claim to represent ... or used to.


1) you have no material evidence of antisemitism endemic in the labour party. None. And repeating the bullshit here does not change that. Pack it in, it's pathetic

2) You have no evidence that the above groundless smears of antisemitism had any effect on the vote for Labour. Present that evidence here or retract the assertion. Or, I will call it out as more bullshit.


Agreed, it is bullshit, and this is going to become quite obvious when the next leader takes over. The same smears will look even sillier when applied to a new leader. And any effect it is actually having on the labour vote is negligible.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Regarding point 2 LJ we do know that support for labour among jews collapsed to less than 10 per cent at this election which hurt labour in a few marginal seats.

All the reports from people canvassing suggest that anti semitism was a factor in why people were turning away from labour.

The ns politics team just before ge reported that it was regularly popping up on the door whilst canvassing across the country.

Even if you think it was all smears it did have an impact. How labour respond to the looming equalities commission report will huge. It is expected to be bad for labour.


It is meaningless, irrelevant tripe. The only people who care about it are sworn enemies of labour already, like you.
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BritDownUnder



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You miss my point. Labour and especially their leadership calculated that they had no reason to deny the anti-semitism accusations because they would gain more Muslim votes than lose Jewish votes because there are more than five times as many Muslims as Jews in the UK. A cruel and cynical calculus. What they miscalculated was they would lose the white working class vote.
They screwed up the election because they elected a principled but unrepentant Marxist as leader who favours fellow totalitarian travellers such as the IRA and Hamas and took his former voters for granted.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corbyn was elected leader after a huge Labour Party membership increase of people who favour Momentum. They are the left wing of left wing politics in this country, although being mainly young they do favour membership of the EU, globalisation and immigration, but it seems that Corbyn wasn't as left wing as they were. He wanted to leave the EU but was constrained by his party voter base. His national voter base, especially in the north is mainly white working class and although they are of the left politically, culturally they are to the right being nationalist and conservative with a small "c". Corbyn was caught in the middle trying to honour two gods at once.

The Labour Party is still largely in the hands of Momentum and doesn't look likely to change any time soon. It took several election cycles for Labour to go from the left wing Union dominated Wilson/Callaghan era to the middle of the road, not quite Tory era of Blair/Brown. I think it will be the same this time as long as Johnson comes up with enough to his new voter satisfy his new swing voter base.

If Boris doesn't perform for the crowd who knows what will happen but Boris knows how to perform so I don't think the Tories have too much to worry about, except, perhaps, pissing off their city and press friends. If that happens they will turn on him as they did against Major and support the new centre right Labour equivalent of Blair.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:
You miss my point. Labour and especially their leadership calculated that they had no reason to deny the anti-semitism accusations because they would gain more Muslim votes than lose Jewish votes because there are more than five times as many Muslims as Jews in the UK. A cruel and cynical calculus. What they miscalculated was they would lose the white working class vote.
They screwed up the election because they elected a principled but unrepentant Marxist as leader who favours fellow totalitarian travellers such as the IRA and Hamas and took his former voters for granted.


This really is total claptrap. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but I suggest in future you get it from somewhere else.
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greers latest blog post references this article on why labour lost the ge.

Very good.

https://quillette.com/2019/12/13/britains-labour-party-got-woke-and-now-its-broke/
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:
You miss my point. Labour and especially their leadership calculated that they had no reason to deny the anti-semitism accusations because they would gain more Muslim votes than lose Jewish votes because there are more than five times as many Muslims as Jews in the UK. A cruel and cynical calculus. What they miscalculated was they would lose the white working class vote.
They screwed up the election because they elected a principled but unrepentant Marxist as leader who favours fellow totalitarian travellers such as the IRA and Hamas and took his former voters for granted.


I don't think it's claptrap. The last sentence is liberal media PR, but the 1st is about right. The election was sabotaged because the labour party MPs do not agree with Corbyns philosophy. I like a lot of what he says, but he was never going to prioritise UK citizens, so he lost support.
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