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George with belated name dropping.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Having now watched the Ingham video I have to comment that for a PHD presentation they could do a lot better on the production. No need for a constant picture of the speaker when she is discussing a slide you need to be able to see the whole slide clearly and with a pointer you can see to direct your eye to the point being discussed.
I have my doubts one can obtain full disease and weed control through inoculation with compost. After all these weeds and diseases evolved in a world full of microbes and fungi.
The whole presentation would be much more convincing with before and after slides of field sections (not just little test plots) and with actual crop yield data and cost accounting.
After all the "MORE ON" farmers in Iowa are getting 150 bushels per acre doing it their way.


It's not meant to be a contender for the Oscars, it's an information conduit and other than folk being profoundly deaf...it conveys that information just fine.

She's not advocating disease and weed control via compost inoculation, she's explaining that inoculation will restore the 'dirt', which is where weeds and disease flourish as a response, to become healthy 'soil', which in turn builds it's own immunological defences via diversity. I'm not quite sure how you can doubt this approach, having never tried it.

The 'MORE-ON' farmers aren't doing it their way, they're doing it the conventional vested interest big-ag way and Elaine isn't advocating her way as an alternative, it's the ecological, evolutionary , natural, if you will, way, as per 4.5 (ish) billion years of perfected adaptation.

The 'MORE-ON' situation is a temporary 'dirty' self reinforcing situation, until the point where it either collapses...or cannot be synthetically continued, at which point they will then use less and the 'MORE-ONS' become 'USE-LESS' with no 'soil'..........and that's disregarding having to pay for any biospherical externalities.

A picture is worth a thousand word. She is constantly pointing at points on a screen that her audience can see but that the cameraman chose not to let us see. You don't have to be deaf to be annoyed by that.
Quote:

She's not advocating disease and weed control via compost inoculation, she's explaining that inoculation will restore the 'dirt', which is where weeds and disease flourish as a response, to become healthy 'soil', which in turn builds it's own immunological defences via diversity.
I fail to see a difference there.
Quote:
I'm not quite sure how you can doubt this approach, having never tried it.

Must one duplicate every experiment to prove or disprove it or can one read other peoples published work with a critical eye and choose which experiments are worth repeating?
I don't dispute the ideal of having a healthy soil full of the full range of micro flora and fauna but would like to know how she proposes to utilize that soil to grow and harvest a useful crop every step of the way. Railing against Monsanto and big AG farmers is fine but until you grow volumes of crops at competitive prices your just screeching from a soap box.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes scepticism can get in the way of learning. Wink I know - I'm guilty. She may not be 100% right but she's leagues ahead of NPK/Monsanto brigade, who are motivated purely by profit. Trouble is, they have to 'production budget' to make their spin convincing.
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peaceful_life



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Having now watched the Ingham video I have to comment that for a PHD presentation they could do a lot better on the production. No need for a constant picture of the speaker when she is discussing a slide you need to be able to see the whole slide clearly and with a pointer you can see to direct your eye to the point being discussed.
I have my doubts one can obtain full disease and weed control through inoculation with compost. After all these weeds and diseases evolved in a world full of microbes and fungi.
The whole presentation would be much more convincing with before and after slides of field sections (not just little test plots) and with actual crop yield data and cost accounting.
After all the "MORE ON" farmers in Iowa are getting 150 bushels per acre doing it their way.


It's not meant to be a contender for the Oscars, it's an information conduit and other than folk being profoundly deaf...it conveys that information just fine.

She's not advocating disease and weed control via compost inoculation, she's explaining that inoculation will restore the 'dirt', which is where weeds and disease flourish as a response, to become healthy 'soil', which in turn builds it's own immunological defences via diversity. I'm not quite sure how you can doubt this approach, having never tried it.

The 'MORE-ON' farmers aren't doing it their way, they're doing it the conventional vested interest big-ag way and Elaine isn't advocating her way as an alternative, it's the ecological, evolutionary , natural, if you will, way, as per 4.5 (ish) billion years of perfected adaptation.

The 'MORE-ON' situation is a temporary 'dirty' self reinforcing situation, until the point where it either collapses...or cannot be synthetically continued, at which point they will then use less and the 'MORE-ONS' become 'USE-LESS' with no 'soil'..........and that's disregarding having to pay for any biospherical externalities.

A picture is worth a thousand word. She is constantly pointing at points on a screen that her audience can see but that the cameraman chose not to let us see. You don't have to be deaf to be annoyed by that.
Quote:

She's not advocating disease and weed control via compost inoculation, she's explaining that inoculation will restore the 'dirt', which is where weeds and disease flourish as a response, to become healthy 'soil', which in turn builds it's own immunological defences via diversity.
I fail to see a difference there.
Quote:
I'm not quite sure how you can doubt this approach, having never tried it.

Must one duplicate every experiment to prove or disprove it or can one read other peoples published work with a critical eye and choose which experiments are worth repeating?
I don't dispute the ideal of having a healthy soil full of the full range of micro flora and fauna but would like to know how she proposes to utilize that soil to grow and harvest a useful crop every step of the way. Railing against Monsanto and big AG farmers is fine but until you grow volumes of crops at competitive prices your just screeching from a soap box.


No no Sir, I'm not railing against anything, it's failing by itself anyway, rather....I'm for the more eco-systemic option.

When one assumes their position to be correct then one can only view the other as non valid and so.. necessity becomes distorted to be seen as the 'ideal'.

Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.
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vtsnowedin



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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:


Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.

If the cook wants to bake bread because the family is hungry then clover would be the wrong crop by any method you wanted to grow it.
I've managed to find and view her slides. She gives one example from a New Zealand study with charts and tables but no pictures of the crop being harvested or a comparison view of the mature stand vs. the control stand. They mowed the crop and I must assume picked it up and fed it to the fenced out cattle either as chopped forage or as hay. No problem with that but there was no formula for the compost tea or nutrient analysis of it either chemical or biological.
Last I knew forage choppers ,wagons and tea sprayers cost money to own and operate. Those costs might be included in their charts or not . I couldn't tell.
The question remains how do you apply these techniques to a crop of corn or soybeans? And for some reason she seems against applications of manure but farmers here find manure and water that has been stored in tanks or ponds over the winter very valuable when applied to crop fields of all types. Worms seem to like it and I imagine all the bacteria like it too.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.


Not worth pondering - it's true!
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:


Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.

If the cook wants to bake bread because the family is hungry then clover would be the wrong crop by any method you wanted to grow it.
I've managed to find and view her slides. She gives one example from a New Zealand study with charts and tables but no pictures of the crop being harvested or a comparison view of the mature stand vs. the control stand. They mowed the crop and I must assume picked it up and fed it to the fenced out cattle either as chopped forage or as hay. No problem with that but there was no formula for the compost tea or nutrient analysis of it either chemical or biological.
Last I knew forage choppers ,wagons and tea sprayers cost money to own and operate. Those costs might be included in their charts or not . I couldn't tell.
The question remains how do you apply these techniques to a crop of corn or soybeans? And for some reason she seems against applications of manure but farmers here find manure and water that has been stored in tanks or ponds over the winter very valuable when applied to crop fields of all types. Worms seem to like it and I imagine all the bacteria like it too.


You have to analyse your soil/dirt?, in its current state, then from there you'll be able to see what it's lacking in and then create a formula to the fungal or bacterial recipe needed to get you to the optimum balance.

What's your optimum?
So, as per the SFW:

'Using Compost Tea or Extract
Making a tea or extract needs to be done to see how concentrated the compost and growth of organisms is.

EXTRACTS are usually applied to soil
TEAS are applied to foliage. Organisms have to be active and growing to make the glues to stick to surfaces.

MINIMUM BIOLOGY NEEDED: Use a microscope to assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficial nematode per drop.

For Extracts, extract enough compost to bring the extract to the same levels of biology as were present in the compost.

For Teas, brew using foods that will bring the organisms to the same levels as were present in the compost

EXTRACTS
For perennials, use a very fungal compost ( 1 strand of fungal hyphae per field) with good protozoa (1 flagellate or amoebae per field) and beneficial nematodes (more than 1 beneficial nematode per drop). In addition, add humic acid, or fish hydrolysate or kelp to the extract as you apply it (hose end applicator). Use an extract on the soil. It only takes a half hour to make the liquid to go out. The organisms in the compost should be active, but not necessarily growing rapidly, as they would be if a tea was made. You don't need to apply a tea to soil -- the organisms will awake, and begin to grow faster if they are applied to the soil and find places with food, moisture, and air that they like.

For annuals, apply balanced compost, good fungal and bacterial compost'


Apply by spraying and/or Keyline injection.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.


Not worth pondering - it's true!


Yeah, but it's a bastard to see when your income depends on you not seeing it.
Upton Sinclair type thing.....
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:


Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.

If the cook wants to bake bread because the family is hungry then clover would be the wrong crop by any method you wanted to grow it.
I've managed to find and view her slides. She gives one example from a New Zealand study with charts and tables but no pictures of the crop being harvested or a comparison view of the mature stand vs. the control stand. They mowed the crop and I must assume picked it up and fed it to the fenced out cattle either as chopped forage or as hay. No problem with that but there was no formula for the compost tea or nutrient analysis of it either chemical or biological.
Last I knew forage choppers ,wagons and tea sprayers cost money to own and operate. Those costs might be included in their charts or not . I couldn't tell.
The question remains how do you apply these techniques to a crop of corn or soybeans? And for some reason she seems against applications of manure but farmers here find manure and water that has been stored in tanks or ponds over the winter very valuable when applied to crop fields of all types. Worms seem to like it and I imagine all the bacteria like it too.


You have to analyse your soil/dirt?, in its current state, then from there you'll be able to see what it's lacking in and then create a formula to the fungal or bacterial recipe needed to get you to the optimum balance.

What's your optimum?
So, as per the SFW:

'Using Compost Tea or Extract
Making a tea or extract needs to be done to see how concentrated the compost and growth of organisms is.

EXTRACTS are usually applied to soil
TEAS are applied to foliage. Organisms have to be active and growing to make the glues to stick to surfaces.

MINIMUM BIOLOGY NEEDED: Use a microscope to assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficial nematode per drop.

For Extracts, extract enough compost to bring the extract to the same levels of biology as were present in the compost.

For Teas, brew using foods that will bring the organisms to the same levels as were present in the compost

EXTRACTS
For perennials, use a very fungal compost ( 1 strand of fungal hyphae per field) with good protozoa (1 flagellate or amoebae per field) and beneficial nematodes (more than 1 beneficial nematode per drop). In addition, add humic acid, or fish hydrolysate or kelp to the extract as you apply it (hose end applicator). Use an extract on the soil. It only takes a half hour to make the liquid to go out. The organisms in the compost should be active, but not necessarily growing rapidly, as they would be if a tea was made. You don't need to apply a tea to soil -- the organisms will awake, and begin to grow faster if they are applied to the soil and find places with food, moisture, and air that they like.

For annuals, apply balanced compost, good fungal and bacterial compost'


Apply by spraying and/or Keyline injection.

Has anybody here made any of this tea? How did you go about it and how did it work? It might be interesting to try a half acre with compost tea beside a half acre of plowed green manure crops repeatedly plowed under to see which builds better soil faster and at the least cost.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:


Perhaps it's worth pondering the question if folk are growing the wrong crops using the wrong methods for the wrong reasons, perhaps.

If the cook wants to bake bread because the family is hungry then clover would be the wrong crop by any method you wanted to grow it.
I've managed to find and view her slides. She gives one example from a New Zealand study with charts and tables but no pictures of the crop being harvested or a comparison view of the mature stand vs. the control stand. They mowed the crop and I must assume picked it up and fed it to the fenced out cattle either as chopped forage or as hay. No problem with that but there was no formula for the compost tea or nutrient analysis of it either chemical or biological.
Last I knew forage choppers ,wagons and tea sprayers cost money to own and operate. Those costs might be included in their charts or not . I couldn't tell.
The question remains how do you apply these techniques to a crop of corn or soybeans? And for some reason she seems against applications of manure but farmers here find manure and water that has been stored in tanks or ponds over the winter very valuable when applied to crop fields of all types. Worms seem to like it and I imagine all the bacteria like it too.


You have to analyse your soil/dirt?, in its current state, then from there you'll be able to see what it's lacking in and then create a formula to the fungal or bacterial recipe needed to get you to the optimum balance.

What's your optimum?
So, as per the SFW:

'Using Compost Tea or Extract
Making a tea or extract needs to be done to see how concentrated the compost and growth of organisms is.

EXTRACTS are usually applied to soil
TEAS are applied to foliage. Organisms have to be active and growing to make the glues to stick to surfaces.

MINIMUM BIOLOGY NEEDED: Use a microscope to assess the compost: Using a 1:5 dilution of compost, 400X total magnification, there should be a MINIMUM of thousands of bacteria in each field of view, 1 strand of fungal hyphae in each 5 fields, 1 flagellate or amoebae in each 5 to 10 fields of view and 1 beneficial nematode per drop.

For Extracts, extract enough compost to bring the extract to the same levels of biology as were present in the compost.

For Teas, brew using foods that will bring the organisms to the same levels as were present in the compost

EXTRACTS
For perennials, use a very fungal compost ( 1 strand of fungal hyphae per field) with good protozoa (1 flagellate or amoebae per field) and beneficial nematodes (more than 1 beneficial nematode per drop). In addition, add humic acid, or fish hydrolysate or kelp to the extract as you apply it (hose end applicator). Use an extract on the soil. It only takes a half hour to make the liquid to go out. The organisms in the compost should be active, but not necessarily growing rapidly, as they would be if a tea was made. You don't need to apply a tea to soil -- the organisms will awake, and begin to grow faster if they are applied to the soil and find places with food, moisture, and air that they like.

For annuals, apply balanced compost, good fungal and bacterial compost'


Apply by spraying and/or Keyline injection.

Has anybody here made any of this tea? How did you go about it and how did it work? It might be interesting to try a half acre with compost tea beside a half acre of plowed green manure crops repeatedly plowed under to see which builds better soil faster and at the least cost.


Yes, but not quite like Elaine is detailing, mainly nettle organic matter teas, they work just fine, but...the revelation of a balanced microbial tea/extract is that the mycelium and microbes will actually go and mine the correct amount of minerals and nutrients for/with the plant itself once the soil is correctly balanced and that will mean specific attention to your own site.

ps..... it's been identified already, only a matter of time before the money folk get a hold of it and try to sell you what you already have......
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2012/s3630158.htm
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:

Yes, but not quite like Elaine is detailing, mainly nettle organic matter teas, they work just fine, but...the revelation of a balanced microbial tea/extract is that the mycelium and microbes will actually go and mine the correct amount of minerals and nutrients for/with the plant itself once the soil is correctly balanced and that will mean specific attention to your own site.


I'd like to find some other scientist concurring with that opinion. Seems a bit like cold fusion to me at first glance.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:

Yes, but not quite like Elaine is detailing, mainly nettle organic matter teas, they work just fine, but...the revelation of a balanced microbial tea/extract is that the mycelium and microbes will actually go and mine the correct amount of minerals and nutrients for/with the plant itself once the soil is correctly balanced and that will mean specific attention to your own site.


I'd like to find some other scientist concurring with that opinion. Seems a bit like cold fusion to me at first glance.


Yeah, at first glance, yeah.
Stick with it.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:

Yes, but not quite like Elaine is detailing, mainly nettle organic matter teas, they work just fine, but...the revelation of a balanced microbial tea/extract is that the mycelium and microbes will actually go and mine the correct amount of minerals and nutrients for/with the plant itself once the soil is correctly balanced and that will mean specific attention to your own site.


I'd like to find some other scientist concurring with that opinion. Seems a bit like cold fusion to me at first glance.


Yeah, at first glance, yeah.
Stick with it.

Certainly, I have the time and the land etc. It will be interesting to see what I can confirm or disprove.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool While doing some online research I came upon this video from the USDA about cover crops. Instead of tilling in a green manure crop to incorporate it into the soil they were spraying it with herbicide and rolling it flat then planting right through it with no till planters. Sort or a hybrid between chemical AG and Permaculture.
It seemed to be working for them and they were keeping track of costs.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVvnZmRdVF24AvuMnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=usda+cover+crop&tnr=21&vid=1F94C6D46AE2F256A6A81F94C6D46AE2F256A6A8&l=1714&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.607997967523645214%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11rs80msm&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnWXCLVCJWTU&sigr=11bmf8nlo&tt=b&tit=Under+Cover+Farmers+-+Feature+Length&sigt=1142m7o3u&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dusda%2Bcover%2Bcrop%2Bvideo%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=1316a114j&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003
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peaceful_life



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Cool While doing some online research I came upon this video from the USDA about cover crops. Instead of tilling in a green manure crop to incorporate it into the soil they were spraying it with herbicide and rolling it flat then planting right through it with no till planters. Sort or a hybrid between chemical AG and Permaculture.
It seemed to be working for them and they were keeping track of costs.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVvnZmRdVF24AvuMnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=usda+cover+crop&tnr=21&vid=1F94C6D46AE2F256A6A81F94C6D46AE2F256A6A8&l=1714&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.607997967523645214%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11rs80msm&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnWXCLVCJWTU&sigr=11bmf8nlo&tt=b&tit=Under+Cover+Farmers+-+Feature+Length&sigt=1142m7o3u&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dusda%2Bcover%2Bcrop%2Bvideo%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=1316a114j&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003


Fair play to you.
I'm just wondering, that even using this method, why bother using any costly chemical sprays at all?
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:

Fair play to you.
I'm just wondering, that even using this method, why bother using any costly chemical sprays at all?

It is not a fair play or moral issue though some would make it so.
If the rye was just rolled flat and not killed by some method it would spring back up and compete with the cash crop just as they were germinating. The cost of the "costly" herbicide application is just $15.00 per acre which is much less then the cost of turn plowing or rotovating.
The rolling and spraying method also leaves the root mat in place and the dieing rye stems in place to prevent erosion and retard weed infestation and moisture evaporation. Think of it as applying a two inch layer of mulch at the rate of two acres a minute.
I'm still researching so haven't formed my final opinion as of yet. I also have seen presentations where cover crops were rotovated in on organic farms and others where cattle were mob grazed for one to three days to remove the bulk of a cover crop while processing some of it into manure. Weight gains of three pounds per day per calf were reported.
I personally know some farmers that became organic certified for a few years but switched back due to the tillage costs and resultant erosion it allowed.
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