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Is it really hard to fathom why many people despise the US?
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
I think that depends on just how conservative you are.


The only bit of the cliché that's true is that the right wing don't have hearts.


Again it depends on how right you are. On your basis you could also say that the left wing don't have hearts. I would agree with you if you said that it was only the ultra left wing who don't have hearts. Generalisations generally don't work.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
I think that depends on just how conservative you are.


The only bit of the cliché that's true is that the right wing don't have hearts.


Again it depends on how right you are. On your basis you could also say that the left wing don't have hearts. I would agree with you if you said that it was only the ultra left wing who don't have hearts. Generalisations generally don't work.


Yus.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are missing the point that young people think the government should solve all problems with new programs and increased spending. And the opposite conservative has learned that every government program has to be paid for, and he will be the one that gets to pay the increased taxes, and will receive much less from the programs then the value of the taxes he or she has had to pay.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, we are not missing the point. We understand well enough that is what you think.
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stumuz1



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is 'we'?
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
I think you are missing the point that young people think the government should solve all problems with new programs and increased spending. And the opposite conservative has learned that every government program has to be paid for, and he will be the one that gets to pay the increased taxes, and will receive much less from the programs then the value of the taxes he or she has had to pay.


Insulting-mis-use-of-a-majestic-south-American-river.com, Apple, Google, etc come to Ireland because the workforce is taxpayer-well-educated, taxpayer-assisted-mobile and capitalism-desperate for any work they can get.

These corporations get taxpayers' money to set up shop, they get good taxpayer-built infrastructure, taxpayer-funded healthy staff, they expect assistance when they get into trouble, they go elsewhere the minute another country gives them yet more taxpayer-funded perks. And guess what? They pay practically no tax in return.

Who the fúck but a right-winger thinks this is a good, sustainable idea?

The question needs no reply. But right-whingers always have to have the last word.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
I think you are missing the point that young people think the government should solve all problems with new programs and increased spending. And the opposite conservative has learned that every government program has to be paid for, and he will be the one that gets to pay the increased taxes, and will receive much less from the programs then the value of the taxes he or she has had to pay.


Insulting-mis-use-of-a-majestic-south-American-river.com, Apple, Google, etc come to Ireland because the workforce is taxpayer-well-educated, taxpayer-assisted-mobile and capitalism-desperate for any work they can get.

These corporations get taxpayers' money to set up shop, they get good taxpayer-built infrastructure, taxpayer-funded healthy staff, they expect assistance when they get into trouble, they go elsewhere the minute another country gives them yet more taxpayer-funded perks. And guess what? They pay practically no tax in return.

Who the fúck but a right-winger thinks this is a good, sustainable idea?

The question needs no reply. But right-whingers always have to have the last word.
The Capitalists came to Ireland because the Irish government wrote laws that made Ireland the most competitive place to do business. Your argument should be with the Irish government, not the Capitalists or this writer.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm half way between Em/LJ and VT/ Stu here.

You could say that a "socialist" Irish government is buying jobs by giving all those subsidies away and is frightened of losing its "investment" by not taxing the multinational kleptocrats properly or letting them get away with tax fiddles. US voters would certainly call most European governments, even Tory ones, socialist.

Those governments are in a race to the bottom with company taxation as the UK is threatening to reduce its corporation tax on leaving the EU so countries will have to find a way to tax corporations in a way that won't frighten them away. I have been badgering my MP for ages now to do away with corporation tax altogether and impose a sales tax on goods sold to people in this country with no exemptions, except maybe for small businesses with low turnover.

With a tax on sales every company would have to pay and no company would want to leave the UK because they would still get good revenue from those sales even paying the tax. Every company would be equally hit so the likes of AmaF***ingzon would not have any advantage over ethical companies like John Lewis or Waterstones.

VT's conservative has been conned by the multinationals, who are avoiding paying their taxes, into thinking that all government spending is wrong so that they can carry on screwing ordinary people into the ground and making "loadsa monay". This they then squirrel away abroad in a tax haven somewhere so the poor conservative voter gets hammered for all the taxation necessary to run a country properly. If VT wasn't so brainwashed he would campaign for fair taxation, any taxation, for these multinationals.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I'm half way between Em/LJ and VT/ Stu here.

....
....

VT's conservative has been conned by the multinationals, who are avoiding paying their taxes, into thinking that all government spending is wrong so that they can carry on screwing ordinary people into the ground and making "loadsa monay". This they then squirrel away abroad in a tax haven somewhere so the poor conservative voter gets hammered for all the taxation necessary to run a country properly. If VT wasn't so brainwashed he would campaign for fair taxation, any taxation, for these multinationals.
Having worked for government all my working life I certainly don't think all government spending is wrong.On the other hand it is about what they get for the money. A lot of it is just misspent. For example back when Boston was finishing up their "Big Dig" boondoggle they admitted to a "mistake" that cost a hundred million dollars that the tax payers had to pick up as neither the designers or builders would except the blame. At that time and at the then current prices you could have paved every square inch of the State of New Hampshire's state highways with a one inch overlay that would last seven to ten years for less then one hundred million.
If you browse through my posts here you can see that I have always campaigned for fair taxation but I don't believe confiscatory rates for the rich are either fair or practical as they drive the rich to tax avoidance which reduces investment in industry and the rest of the economy.
It is not as simple to tax the rich and give to the poor. Never has been and never will be..
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was saying tax the multinationals rather than tax the rich although they could have a lot fewer "get outs" than they take advantage of at the moment. If I have to pay 30% of my wages in tax I don't see why someone earning ten times what I do shouldn't pay the same rather than be able to take advantage of get outs to reduce that to 10%. OK they might be paying more than I do but they are probably getting more out of it than I do with their employment of people educated by the state and their own contribution to higher education.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I was saying tax the multinationals rather than tax the rich although they could have a lot fewer "get outs" than they take advantage of at the moment. If I have to pay 30% of my wages in tax I don't see why someone earning ten times what I do shouldn't pay the same rather than be able to take advantage of get outs to reduce that to 10%. OK they might be paying more than I do but they are probably getting more out of it than I do with their employment of people educated by the state and their own contribution to higher education.

Corporations earn millions each year but when divided over the shares outstanding usually amount to a dollar or two per share each quarter.
Are you forgetting that corporate income is taxed at the corporate level (wither multinational or home bound) and then the stock holders receive it as dividends or capital gains and pay taxes on that same income again? Isn't once at 33 percent enough?
Now tax dodges that let people pass capital gains onto children without paying the tax and any other avoidance schemes are another kettle of fish and should be forbidden.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CEO/Owners of companies like Microsoft, Amaf***ingzon and Facebook don't look short of a bob or two to me. And before you say that Bill Gates gives a lot away, most of what he gives is designed to profit other, mostly American, big companies in one way or another. Charity? I don't think so.

The way that corporation tax works at the moment, in the UK anyway, means that big multinational companies can get away without paying tax and can therefore undercut ethical companies which do, putting them out of business eventually.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:

The way that corporation tax works at the moment, in the UK anyway, means that big multinational companies can get away without paying tax and can therefore undercut ethical companies which do, putting them out of business eventually.
Not sure how that works in the UK but yes that would be a problem that needs fixing.
To say it again if necessary: I think there is much in the present tax code that needs to be changed but at the same time moving to a high rate of corporate tax (>33%)is both immoral and would be counter productive.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The myriad depressions in economic history - caused largely by barely regulated, lightly-taxed corporations - still fail to dent many peoples' belief that those corporations can, or are out to, help the poor in any way. They have no interest whatsoever in the poor. This is obvious. Why should they? But they also capture the governments who would try to help the poor.

Inequality is possibly the second-biggest problem this species faces.
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Catweazle



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UK companies pay corporation tax on monies they have left over at the end of the financial year. Clever accountants minimise this amount and avoid tax. Shareholders used to be able to avoid paying national insurance on dividend payouts, saving 11%, but that hole is now closed.
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