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Assange Watch
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8828
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevecook172001 wrote:
frank_begbie wrote:
Don't worry, its for your own protection.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/new-totalitarianism-surveillance-technology
Fascism is coming. You know it and I know it. The important question all of us are each individually going to have to ask ourselves at some point is this:

Am I just going to accept and adapt, or is there a point at which I decide to be a part of doing something about it? Something real and not just twittering about it down the pub or on places like this.

It's a question I am currently asking myself.


Personally speaking, I've already answered it. Yes, I'm prepared to do something, but timing is everything. There is also the small matter of deciding what it is you ought to do.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8828
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frank_begbie wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:
frank_begbie wrote:
Don't worry, its for your own protection.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/new-totalitarianism-surveillance-technology
Fascism is coming. You know it and I know it. The important question all of us are each individually going to have to ask ourselves at some point is this:

Am I just going to accept and adapt, or is there a point at which I decide to be a part of doing something about it? Something real and not just twittering about it down the pub or on places like this.

It's a question I am currently asking myself.


Yes I'm asking the same question.

We need another Martin Luther King.

Someone with great personality, someone we can trust, someone to follow, to join us all together.

Is there anyone out there?


We need several of them. Here's my candidate...two of them actually.

Thom Hartmann interviews David Korten:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWjK9xExeyI
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SleeperService



Joined: 02 May 2011
Posts: 1104
Location: Nottingham UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What to do?

FWIW here's what I'd suggest for a start

Pull the UK out of the EU and return to a trading arrangement only, they send more here than we do there. Withdraw from NATO and decommission our not-independent nuclear deterrent that everybody knows we'll never use.

Offer Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland referendums on independence. England votes on whether they want to keep the same.

Seperate retail banking completely from all other activities and be lender of last resort to the retail banks only.

Everybody has a personal tax free limit. ALL other income from whatever source is taxed at the same rate, this rate applies to ALL taxes including money transfers off shore.

Turn ALL street lights off two or three times a year so people can see the stars.

Once a person accumulates 1 year in jail, the second time they are jailed after that is a whole life sentence with no parole and complete removal from society. The earlier sentences will be aimed at training and rehabilitation rather than punishment.

For the unemployed a position in the Civil Corps while other work is sought. Unemployment benefit to be the average wage for a year, then reducing. Civil Corps to undertake works to improve the lives of everybody NOT as cheap labour for businesses.

Households in urban areas only allowed vehicles that can be parked off the street. One car only if on-street parking is all that's available.

No policical parties active at local council level. Local councils given a single budget and allowed to spend it as they need.

MPs to be liable for any decisions made against the constituency's interest by the power of recall and dismissal.

A home improvement scheme to bring ALL housing up to a high standard of insulation. This would include replanning towns and massive rebuilding if desired by the population. Scheme to be free to residents until the house is sold.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14225
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good list and some of it forms part of what's needed (I wouldn't go along with the incarceration angle, for instance). However, well done, SS. Get a quarter of it into practice and we'd be getting somewhere.

I believe Steve's asking himself what he should do personally.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5382
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ecuador delays announcemnt on asylum until 4 pm. Lot's of diplomatic language being spoken.

Who will blink?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 6050
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeperService wrote:
What to do?

FWIW here's what I'd suggest for a start

Pull the UK out of the EU and return to a trading arrangement only, they send more here than we do there. Withdraw from NATO and decommission our not-independent nuclear deterrent that everybody knows we'll never use.


Agree about the EU. Regarding the so-called deterrent. It may not be independent, but make no mistake, it would be used if the yanks so desired it.

Quote:
Offer Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland referendums on independence. England votes on whether they want to keep the same.


Agree about Irish, Welsh and Scottish referendums. I don't see why the English should be able to vote to stop them, though. I also don't see why the English should have to put up with Devo-Light either just because the SNP may want it, by the way

Quote:
Seperate retail banking completely from all other activities and be lender of last resort to the retail banks only.


I agree
Quote:

Everybody has a personal tax free limit. ALL other income from whatever source is taxed at the same rate, this rate applies to ALL taxes including money transfers off shore.


I don't see how a flat rate of tax is either fair or practicable. It's not fair because tax represent a larger proportion of a poor person's income and so they are disproportionately penalised under a flat rate system. The only way that is resolved is by having the tax free limit set extremely high and/or setting the post tax-free rate of tax extremely high. However, at that point, there will be insufficient tax to run the essential services.

Quote:
Turn ALL street lights off two or three times a year so people can see the stars.


Nice, but doesn't solve the big stuff.
Quote:

Once a person accumulates 1 year in jail, the second time they are jailed after that is a whole life sentence with no parole and complete removal from society. The earlier sentences will be aimed at training and rehabilitation rather than punishment.

Who sets the laws and decides what is worthy of a jail term? Your suggestion, here, seems to be based on an underlying assumption that all governments at all times will always have your best interests at heart. It's extremely naive in my opinion.
Quote:

For the unemployed a position in the Civil Corps while other work is sought. Unemployment benefit to be the average wage for a year, then reducing. Civil Corps to undertake works to improve the lives of everybody NOT as cheap labour for businesses.


I certainly dont have a problem with the principle here. However, what happens to unemployment benefit if there is actually no work out there? Does it still get reduced over time?

Quote:
Households in urban areas only allowed vehicles that can be parked off the street. One car only if on-street parking is all that's available.


So, only rich people in urban areas get to park for free, or even get to own a car? Are you serious? You think that's going to work?

Quote:
No policical parties active at local council level. Local councils given a single budget and allowed to spend it as they need.


Impossible to implement and deeply undemocratic. People should be able to vote for who they want under all circumstances barring incitement to violence etc.

Quote:
MPs to be liable for any decisions made against the constituency's interest by the power of recall and dismissal.

Fair enough. But, who gets to decide what is or is not in the constituency's interest? Unless you can pin that down, this is just to vague a suggestion.

Quote:
A home improvement scheme to bring ALL housing up to a high standard of insulation. This would include replanning towns and massive rebuilding if desired by the population. Scheme to be free to residents until the house is sold.

Yep, I could sign up to that.

The main problem I have with some parts of your solutions that instead of really dealing in any fundamental way with the underlying global corporatist power that now runs our lives for its benefit one or two of them are just about social fiddling around the edges in ways that imply you think the problems largely emanate from below rather than as a consequence of corruption from the top.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8828
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://news.sky.com/story/973139/assange-fighting-erupts-outside-embassy
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8828
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they are going to do it. They are actually going to force their way into the Ecuadorian embassy to get Julian Assange and send him to Sweden on trumped-up "rape" charges so he can be extradited to the United States.

If this happens, both the British and the Swedes will go down in history as enemies of free speech and the cronies of a dying, immoral, evil American Empire. This should not be happening.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14225
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
I think they are going to do it.


Certainly looks like it. The number of uniformed scabs brought in alone suggests that.
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"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
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emordnilap



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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assange is a case of guilty till proven innocent, though it's doubtful he'll be proven innocent even if he is. In fact, it's surprising he's still alive. There's a good chance he soon won't be. Prayer is a waste of time but what else can you do?

The fascist state is here and we're all part of it.
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"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
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nexus



Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 1305

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Murray posted this on his site and has asked for people to repost widely because his site has crashed (up again now)


Quote:
UPDATE

100,000 HITS IN 100 MINUTES CRASHED THE SITE. WE DONT KNOW YET IF GENUINE INTEREST OR DENIAL OF SERVICE ATTACK. OUR BRILLIANT WEBHOSTS HAVE QUADRUPLED THE RESOURCE, BUT IF YOU CAN HELP TAKE THE STRAIN BY REPOSTING I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL.
I returned to the UK today to be astonished by private confirmation from within the FCO that the UK government has indeed decided after immense pressure from the Obama administration to enter the Ecuadorean Embassy and seize Julian Assange.

This will be, beyond any argument, a blatant breach of the Vienna Convention of 1961, to which the UK is one of the original parties and which encodes the centuries arguably millennia of practice which have enabled diplomatic relations to function. The Vienna Convention is the most subscribed single international treaty in the world.

The provisions of the Vienna Convention on the status of diplomatic premises are expressed in deliberately absolute terms. There is no modification or qualification elsewhere in the treaty.

Article 22

1.The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter
them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.
2.The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises
of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the
mission or impairment of its dignity.
3.The premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of
transport of the mission shall be immune from search, requisition, attachment or execution.

Not even the Chinese government tried to enter the US Embassy to arrest the Chinese dissident Chen Guangchen. Even during the decades of the Cold War, defectors or dissidents were never seized from each others embassies. Murder in Samarkand relates in detail my attempts in the British Embassy to help Uzbek dissidents. This terrible breach of international law will result in British Embassies being subject to raids and harassment worldwide.

The governments calculation is that, unlike Ecuador, Britain is a strong enough power to deter such intrusions. This is yet another symptom of the might is right principle in international relations, in the era of the neo-conservative abandonment of the idea of the rule of international law.

The British Government bases its argument on domestic British legislation. But the domestic legislation of a country cannot counter its obligations in international law, unless it chooses to withdraw from them. If the government does not wish to follow the obligations imposed on it by the Vienna Convention, it has the right to resile from it which would leave British diplomats with no protection worldwide.

I hope to have more information soon on the threats used by the US administration. William Hague had been supporting the move against the concerted advice of his own officials; Ken Clarke has been opposing the move against the advice of his. I gather the decision to act has been taken in Number 10.

There appears to have been no input of any kind from the Liberal Democrats. That opens a wider question there appears to be no liberal impact now in any question of coalition policy. It is amazing how government salaries and privileges and ministerial limousines are worth far more than any belief to these people. I cannot now conceive how I was a member of that party for over thirty years, deluded into a genuine belief that they had principles.


http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asylum granted. UK to ignore.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18544
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Murray is certainly worth reading.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/08/americas-vassal-acts-decisively-and-illegally/
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Last edited by biffvernon on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 6050
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
I think they are going to do it. They are actually going to force their way into the Ecuadorian embassy to get Julian Assange and send him to Sweden on trumped-up "rape" charges so he can be extradited to the United States.

If this happens, both the British and the Swedes will go down in history as enemies of free speech and the cronies of a dying, immoral, evil American Empire. This should not be happening.
A very quick response is required. We need f***ing hundreds of thousands down there outside the embassy to protect him RIGHT NOW. If necessary, they will be needed to protect him all the way to the airport or sea port. If there was ever a moment when people could rally round a single issue in the broader fight against Yank hegemony, this is it.

This is it.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5382
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the 1987 UK law requiers one week's notice of the intention to enter the premices. So expect it to happen at 3am tomorrow.
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