PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Prospects of this generation are worse than the last?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Prospects of this generation are worse than the last?
Yes
81%
 81%  [ 30 ]
No
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
No idea!
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 37

Author Message
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 8132

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Prospects of this generation are worse than the last? Reply with quote

This recent quote from Brown made me thinking. There's no substance, no evidence or analysis. His argument seems to be optimists are better than pessimists! He's an optimist and the Tories are pessimists. When is optimism just bonkers? Can any analysis support Brown's optimism?

Quote:
Brown optimistic over UK economy
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has painted an optimistic prediction for the economy, saying it was "simply not true" that tough times are ahead.
...
He also said the nation had a choice "between people like me who are optimists for the future of this country and those who think the prospects of this generation are worse than the last".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8300347.stm


Pretty much every generation since the middle ages has had it better than the last, with possible exceptions for those who fought in the two world wars. How about the next generation?
_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Quintus



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 598
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Prospects of this generation are worse than the last? Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
Pretty much every generation since the middle ages has had it better than the last, with possible exceptions for those who fought in the two world wars. How about the next generation?


It's a popular view that things get ever better, but I'd say there's always been lots of ups and downs through history.

Until the "agricultural revolution" there were good times and very lean times, mainly depending on harvests and plagues. The Corn Laws (from 1815) kept corn prices high and that had a grim impact on the urban working class. Then there was the agricultural recession from the 1870s until WW2 (mainly due to lots of cheap exports) good for town dwellers, terrible for agricultural workers. Plus the 1930s - 50s was arguably a step back in quality of life (some rationing until 1957). If you worked in an "old industry" the 1980s would probably be seen as a lot grimmer than any for decades.

I suspect that what you do for a living and where you live in the world will make a big difference as to whether a person can be optimistic or pessimistic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vortex



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 6097

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Human beings adapt (in the biologic behavioural sense).

In other words the status quo quickly becomes the new 'average'.

Whatever the world throws at us, we generally get used to.

If the future involves warmer climates, more storms, less fuel, less electricity then so be it ... it will be 'every day life' for those who follow.

All of which leads to a NO vote in the poll.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 8132

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear what you say about adapting... but if the population is up by a billion or two, if food production, drinking water, availability of medication, ethnic/racial tolerance etc doesn't increase similarly, it's hard to see how prospects can be better. Low level stuff, if life expectancy decreases by a decade in the next generation due to all of the above and more that's not something you can get used to and still say prospects are better than they were.
_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 2591

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brown is not arguing, he is just posturing ahead of the election.

And if the Tories had been in government instead, I'll bet the outcome would be the same and the roles reversed. The consumerist engine drives the monkey mouthpieces.
_________________
I'm hippest, no really.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Quintus



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 598
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foodinistar wrote:
Brown is not arguing, he is just posturing ahead of the election.


Will Brown lead Labour into the next election? The top, front page story on the BBC website is:

Quote:
Minor retinal tears in PM's eye
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8300686.stm

It could be we are being prepared for the "Stepping down due to ill health; Alan Johnson will lead the party at the next election once the Lisbon Treaty is safely approved" announcement.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
snow hope



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 4101
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just voted No in error. Can a mod change my vote to a Yes, please?

Honest, it was not the beer. Wink Laughing
_________________
Real money is gold and silver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7337
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

snow hope wrote:
I have just voted No in error. Can a mod change my vote to a Yes, please?

Honest, it was not the beer. Wink Laughing


Not certain if that is possible, I can move, delete or edit posts, but dont think that I can alter or edit votes in a poll.
_________________
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Quintus



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 598
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
snow hope wrote:
I have just voted No in error. Can a mod change my vote to a Yes, please?

Honest, it was not the beer. Wink Laughing


Not certain if that is possible, I can move, delete or edit posts, but dont think that I can alter or edit votes in a poll.


That's terrible news! Anyone stumbling across this poll will think there are 14 Powerswitch pessimists to every 2 optimists, rather than 15 pessimists to every 1 optimist. Sad Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7337
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless of course a lot more people vote, in which case the error of one mis-cast vote becomes a minute percentage of the total, rather than the significant error that it is at present.
_________________
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fifthcolumn



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 2525

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted no.
My reason is that when I came out of uni in the late 80s things were pretty grim.
Things have to fall quite a bit to get back to the late 80s standard of living.
If we take five years to get back there, it hangs around there for ten years and then goes up based on a more sustainable renewables based economy it's possible the next generation might look forward to a better life than ours.

We just were able to waste a lot of resources. Is that really the good life?
I personally think not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11351
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quintus wrote:
That's terrible news! Anyone stumbling across this poll will think there are 14 Powerswitch pessimists to every 2 optimists, rather than 15 pessimists to every 1 optimist. Sad Wink


That is indeed terrible: a 50% drop in optimism. We're aaaaall dooooomed!!
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11351
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quality of life depends on where you live and what your aims in life are. If you live in the south east, especially, are young and want to buy a house, your quality of life is going to be pretty ropey at the moment, as it has been for a few years past. You've no chance unless the Mummy and Daddy Bank has been good to you.

If you're a dairy or pig farmer you will have been wondering when the bank was going to foreclose for quite some time now. If you live in South Wales, all a Labour government has done for you is keep up the dole payments, although recently they have sanctioned a few new jobs in opencast coal mining. (What happened to Kyoto commitments, I wonder?)

If you're a *anker, especially one who has lost their job, life must be pretty terrible. (All together now "Ahhhhhh!) You will have to live the rest of your life on the proceeds of your last few bonuses: probably more than most of us earn in a lifetime, but never mind.

Life in the future could be pretty good with less work time and more leisure time, less income but no interest payments although no interest on savings. And just think, fewer adverts to annoy you because less tat will be made.

I you're in central or local government or a quango you've been like a cow in clover for ages now, although there might be a few Tory shaped clouds on the horizon. If you're coming up for retirement from private industry things might not look so good having had your pension shaved by Grasping Gordon a few years ago.

All in all though, I think things will be even worse. The Tories always have to get the country back on an even keel after a spell of Labour government and that always hurts. And who gets the blame? The people who buggered up the country or those who sort it out? Bloody Tories!!
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
fifthcolumn



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 2525

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal wrote:
Quality of life depends on where you live and what your aims in life are. If you live in the south east, especially, are young and want to buy a house, your quality of life is going to be pretty ropey at the moment, as it has been for a few years past. You've no chance unless the Mummy and Daddy Bank has been good to you.

Not to turn this into a north vs south debate, but I shed no tears for the children of the rich south. In the north, you've always been f***ed from the get go. Similarly I reckon, for those in places like Wales.

Quote:

If you're a *anker, especially one who has lost their job, life must be pretty terrible. (All together now "Ahhhhhh!) You will have to live the rest of your life on the proceeds of your last few bonuses: probably more than most of us earn in a lifetime, but never mind.

Surely you meant to say "rich wanker", because wankers are not limited to the upper classes.

Quote:

Life in the future could be pretty good with less work time and more leisure time, less income but no interest payments although no interest on savings. And just think, fewer adverts to annoy you because less tat will be made.

I doubt it. I remember in the early 80s the big thing at school was "preparing for a life of leisure". Didn't work out that way and never will.

The flaw was the failure to recognise the following problem:

How are the super rich going to get their interest payments if nobody works?

So rest assured, there will be tat made and there will be bullshit jobs to do.


Quote:

All in all though, I think things will be even worse. The Tories always have to get the country back on an even keel after a spell of Labour government and that always hurts. And who gets the blame? The people who buggered up the country or those who sort it out? Bloody Tories!!

It will be interesting to see how they do that. The Tories, far as I can see, favour agenda's that enable increased interest payments to the super-rich while squeezing the existing infrastructure hard without investing much in new infrastructure. Since much of the interest paid out was generated from North Sea Oil and asset appreciation, I fail to see how the Tories can fix anything.

Not that Labour can do much better, since they appear to be the party of the banks, giving hundreds of billions to the banks while giving tens of millions towards research(!) towards energy generating infrastructure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11351
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*anker has come to be a euphemism for banker on this site and elsewhere. But, you can take it the other way if that's how you feel about *ankers.

Tat making will be one of the first casualties of higher fuel prices and/or carbon taxes so there will be plenty of tat makers going out of business. It's happening already in China but we don't notice it so much.

A zero growth economy is impossible if interest has to be paid and as we need a zero or even negative growth economy ...... . The rich, and anybody else who has a lot of money in the bank, will just have to whistle for their interest. The stashing of large sums of money anywhere is not a good thing as it takes money out of circulation and requires the printing of more. This leads to inflation (Richard Douthwaite, I think).
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group