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[PVPost] Roadbuilding

 
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: [PVPost] Roadbuilding Reply with quote

PVPoster1 wrote:
[This is an edited re-post of a topic that existed before the forums were hit by a virus in June 2005. Please feel free to add comments at the end, however if you are reading this soon after it was posted, it's likely that more old' replies will be added in the next hour or so and therefore please wait before replying a) to see if your point will be covered and b) to let the original sequence of posts make sense. Thank you]


One thing that bothers me is when we run out of oil what will we build our roads from? We currently make tarmaccadam from oil.

This is of course assuming that our vehicles could be powered by hydrogen.

Scorpio
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you can always build roads out of concrete too (think about those noisy sections of motorway). But you still need to mine the materials from somewhere, and that needs oil-powered machinery, as does roadbuilding itself.

At least the roads won't wear out so quick if there aren't so many cars on them Wink, though I guess the environment will take its toll on them anyway.

Seriously though, I don't think we can look for ways to try and preserve life exactly how it is now - especially our driving habits. It simply isn't sustainable, and we will waste time and resources and ultimately disapoint everybody by trying.

What we need is to return to a more local way of living, where people can walk, cycle or catch a bus/train to work. Food needs to be produced locally, and sold in shops we can walk to. We need to wind the clock back to before cars were commonplace. Sure, there will still be some cars around, maybe forever, running on ethanol, biediesel or hydrogen, but they will be for the rich, or for essential services like police, ambulances, etc. Or am I being too hopeful even with this.... Sad
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see us needing more roads. If there is a massive return of population to the countryside, maybe.

Scorpio you need to have a squiz at www.dieoff.org - especially the stuff about eMergy. You will realize that hyrdrogen is a cruel joke being played by the corporations against the majority who have a vague idea of hydrogen from elementary science in junior high!

If we are really lucky and we all work together we might be able to salvage a world where the roads will be used for delivery vans, ambulances, and taxis all being run on biodiesel; if we cannot get our politicians and corporations to take this issue seriously within the next few years then we just might be heading for a population crash..

I've been pursuing our pollies for years and they are either in denial or they are too scared to play any leadership role...

It's up to us all folks..what are we going to do..
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is one of the most important half-truths being told by those in power; that hydrogen can somehow supply our transport needs. It is an energy carrier, not a fuel - it can only be produced from hydrocarbon fuels (which are more efficient to start with) or electricity. And there are better things to do with electricity than run cars.

I personally see roads as mass transit being replaced by a renaissance of rail. Since all the efficiencies involved are much higher, it could be powered by the biodiesel/ethanol that will, in my opinion, be the most or only viable fuel during and after a transition to a sustainable economy.

At a local scale, a horse and cart doesn't need tarmac.

Anyway, we managed fine with unpaved or stone-paved roads for millenia before tarmacadam, perhaps someone should investigate the methods of Roman road-building.
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous" wrote:
I think this is one of the most important half-truths being told by those in power; that hydrogen can somehow supply our transport needs.

It can - no doubt about it. Even aircraft can be built around hydrogen! What can not be built about hydrogen - is the economy with the same number of cars. This number will be reduced 10-20 times. Basically most personal cars will be gone - only transport cars will be there are transport will be expensive.
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, I think Hydrogen technology is viable for limited transport needs.

But, like many poster's, I feel the current spin that we can just carry on as we are, filling up our cars with hydrogen instead of petrol, is just a plain old con.

The private motor car is such an icon, many people only see alternative futures that include them.

Personally, when I think of the future I think of ZERO private cars.

Hydrogen powered buses, maybe.

Biofuels have similar efficiency problems as hydrogen - but I think either could be used to provide some forms of mass transit.

I think that rail will (again) become the backbone of Uk transport.

My guess if that we'll have a period of re-nationalised north sea oil producing diesel for trains and some road freight (food...) giving way to electric trains, virtually all freight moving to rail (collect your rations at the station now instead of the old Tesco's...) and limited forms of hyrdrogen/biofuel buses.

We already have far more roads than we'll even need - at least there will be lots of smooth tarmac to bycycle on!

I guess many urban roads will be depaved"" to get the land back.
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PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like the idea of re-fitting the old steam engines like the Flying Scotsman and Mallard- currently in York's National Railway Museum. I think we could have a few coal powered trains around again. And maybe coal powered Atlantic crossings will become the norm again once aviation's sunk without a trace? Or even wind-powered?
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