PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

New coronavirus in/from China
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 489, 490, 491 ... 493, 494, 495  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1353
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Mark wrote:


Nice one...., great marketing/endorsement Smile
She's 85 though, so maybe wise to use a pic showing more than the requisite 2m ?
Just in case the worst were to happen...


But the truth is she is capable of making her own mind up about whether she wanted to stay 2m from me. We'd just had lunch together, and on quite a small table for 6 people, because we had three dogs with us and they weren't allowed in the restaurant bit of the pub.


That's fine - your/her decision
Was only thinking of your own self preservation.
If she had got it and became ill/died, you wouldn't want the media finger pointing in your direction.
Just suggesting that you use a different pic, if you have any ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 12348
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
............. I have no words that I wish to repeat here about what I think of people like you Ken Neil. ..........


You are veering towards an extremist fascist, Nazi, or communist, Stalinist, attitude here, LJ, with your violent hatred of people who honestly hold a different view to yours. Not a very good position to be in.

As far as I an concerned it is not worth getting upset over the views of someone else in the matter of covid as the disease is so new that science is learning something new every day. In a couple of years time with the accumulated knowledge and the benefit of hindsight the scientists studying the disease might be able to make reliable pronunciations on the issue. Until then I will keep an open mind and live as I see fit, which is to heed government advise.
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Little John wrote:
............. I have no words that I wish to repeat here about what I think of people like you Ken Neil. ..........


You are veering towards an extremist fascist, Nazi, or communist, Stalinist, attitude here, LJ, with your violent hatred of people who honestly hold a different view to yours. Not a very good position to be in.

As far as I an concerned it is not worth getting upset over the views of someone else in the matter of covid as the disease is so new that science is learning something new every day. In a couple of years time with the accumulated knowledge and the benefit of hindsight the scientists studying the disease might be able to make reliable pronunciations on the issue. Until then I will keep an open mind and live as I see fit, which is to heed government advise.
Nobody has got either a problem with "advice" or people's decision to heed it or not.

But, it is not "advice" is it. It is legal coercion and that coercion is being cheered on by people like you Ken.

All of which is really quite ironic given your accusation of "Stalinsim" and Nazism".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 11148
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Mark wrote:


Nice one...., great marketing/endorsement Smile
She's 85 though, so maybe wise to use a pic showing more than the requisite 2m ?
Just in case the worst were to happen...


But the truth is she is capable of making her own mind up about whether she wanted to stay 2m from me. We'd just had lunch together, and on quite a small table for 6 people, because we had three dogs with us and they weren't allowed in the restaurant bit of the pub.


That's fine - your/her decision
Was only thinking of your own self preservation.
If she had got it and became ill/died, you wouldn't want the media finger pointing in your direction.
Just suggesting that you use a different pic, if you have any ?


https://imgur.com/a/pwYnYPf

That is her family. F*ck covid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/09/lockdown-is-a-terrible-experiment/?#.X4mo8INB6t0.facebook
Quote:

‘Lockdown is a terrible experiment’

Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff on the Great Barrington Declaration and why lockdown harms public health.
spiked
9th October 2020
‘Lockdown is a terrible experiment’
Share
Topics Politics Science & Tech World

The lockdowns around the world have been justified on the basis of ‘The Science’. But now a group of eminent infectious-disease experts have come together to sign the Great Barrington Declaration, calling for an end to the lockdowns and for more resources to be devoted to protecting the vulnerable. One of the three main signatories is Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. spiked caught up with him to find out more.

spiked: What is your driving concern about lockdown, and what compelled you to sign the Great Barrington Declaration?

Martin Kulldorff: The media suggests there is a scientific consensus in favour of lockdown, but that is not the case. I have two concerns. One is about the collateral damage lockdown causes to other aspects of public health. One of the basic principles of public health is that you do not just look at one disease – you have to look at health as a whole, including all kinds of diseases, over a long period. That is not what has been done with Covid-19. As a public-health scientist, it is stunning to see how focused people are on this one disease and on the short term. The collateral damage is very tragic: cardiovascular disease outcomes are worse, cancer screenings are down, and there are mental-health issues, for example.

My second concern is that, even when we put broader public health to one side and focus just on Covid, the current approach does not make sense. We sought to flatten the curve in the spring so as not to overload hospitals, and that succeeded in almost every country. But trying to suppress the disease with contact tracing, testing and isolation, together with severe lockdowns, is not going to solve the problem. It will just push things into the future.

spiked: How should we be dealing with the virus instead?
‘Lockdown is a terrible experiment’
Recommended
‘Lockdown is a terrible experiment’
spiked

Kulldorff: We should not do nothing, and just let Covid rip through society. But we should not do a general lockdown either. Even with a lockdown we will still have a lot of people, young and old, who get the disease, and a lot of the older people will die. The key to minimising mortality in the long term is to do what we, in the declaration, call ‘focused protection’: focusing efforts on high-risk individuals, and letting young people live their lives normally. Young people should still wash their hands and stay home when they are sick. But they should be able to have in-person teaching in schools and universities, and be allowed to take part in sports and so on. Restaurants should be allowed to open.

In this scenario, if we protect the elderly more effectively, very few will be infected. Instead, lots of young people will be infected. Shifting the balance of infection toward young people will drastically reduce mortality. We cannot completely protect the elderly, but the longer we drag out the pandemic, the more difficult it is to do so. They are actually better protected if we don’t have a lockdown.

Anyone can be infected. But we know that there is a difference in risk between age groups. And it’s not just a two-fold or five-fold or even 10-fold excess risk. It’s not even 100-fold. The difference in risk between the oldest and the youngest is more than 1,000-fold. That is huge.

Covid-19 is our enemy, and we have to utilise its weaknesses. Covid is not a dangerous disease for young people. For children, it is much less dangerous than seasonal flu. For example, Sweden was the only country that kept schools open throughout the height of the pandemic in the spring. There were no masks and there was no social distancing. Out of 1.8million children there were exactly zero deaths from Covid-19 during this period. And there were only a few hospitalisations. It was much milder than the seasonal flu.
Big Tech vs free speech
Podcast
Big Tech vs free speech
spiked

spiked: You’ve described the risks Covid poses to different age groups. But is it not also the case that the harms of the lockdown are unevenly distributed?

Kulldorff: That’s certainly true. Lockdown is a double whammy for the working class. In terms of Covid itself, we are protecting low-risk college students and professionals who can work from home, while working-class people still have to go to work. We are basically throwing the working class under the bus, protecting those of us who are more privileged. The working class is carrying the burden of generating the immunity that will eventually protect us all.

The collateral damage of lockdown is also hurting the working class. Those of us who can work from home are less likely to lose our jobs. But if you work as a waiter in a restaurant, for example, it’s different. And of course, the working class has much less of a safety net. The more privileged are better able to take a financial hit. But the working class doesn’t have that luxury.

spiked: One thing that is not mentioned in the declaration is mass testing and contact tracing. That seems to be a major part of most governments’ strategies. The British government, for example, has spent more on its contact-tracing system than it spent on the 2012 Olympics. Do you think this will work, or is it misguided?

Kulldorff: First of all, contact tracing, testing and case isolation is a well-established method for infectious-disease control. For some diseases it is a critical tool. But we don’t use this method for annual influenza. It doesn’t work for that. And it doesn’t work for Covid if it has already spread in the population, in the absence of lockdown measures.

For nursing homes, testing is critical. If staff have already had Covid and are immune, we don’t need to test them. But those who have not had it should be tested frequently, because they could otherwise infect the residents who are at a higher risk. Testing is also important in hospital settings. There is a rationale for random testing, too, not so much to know if a particular person is infected, but more to monitor the spread of the disease in society.

On the other hand, there is no public-health purpose for the mass testing of college students or school children. It’s just damaging, and makes people afraid, meaning schools get closed.

spiked: Some people argue it will take too long to achieve herd immunity. What is your take on that issue?

Kulldorff: We have herd immunity for lots of other pathogens, some through vaccines, but most through natural infection. It is therefore far-fetched and ignorant to think it will not happen for Covid. It is true that we don’t know how long immunity to Covid lasts. For some infections, like measles, we get lifelong immunity. But for others, we don’t. If we are to get Covid again several years down the line, however, it is likely it will be much milder than the first time.

We are never going to get rid of Covid. It is going to be endemic, just like other coronaviruses. But one thing that makes a big difference is that every year new people are born. They are susceptible to Covid, but for children it is a very mild disease. That is an advantage we have in fighting Covid compared to, say, measles, which is a very serious disease for children. If you look at it with a long-term perspective, if everybody gets Covid as a child, it is not going to be a major problem.

spiked: Have people lost sight of the bigger picture? There seems to be little concern about what current measures might mean in 10 years’ time, or even any consideration of how we have dealt with public-health emergencies in the past.

Kulldorff: It’s a unique experiment, and it’s a terrible experiment. I’m amazed – as are many of my colleagues – at the total focus on this disease. In a short time, we are throwing all the principles of public health out the window. Most countries in Europe had a pandemic-preparedness plan which did not recommend lockdowns, but instead proposed a risk-based strategy to protect those at high risk, which is actually the same as the focused protection we put forward in the Great Barrington Declaration. What we are proposing is, therefore, nothing revolutionary. Many people have been advocating for it throughout this pandemic, but they have not had much attention.

spiked: Do you think there is a danger that the current measures could become the established way of dealing with health crises?

Kulldorff: No, because it will be so clear down the road that what we did was a big mistake. What I am concerned about is that the trust in science and scientists, which has already taken a hit, will get even worse. This is worrying when thinking about future health crises. For example, some people in the United States don’t want to talk to the public-health department about contact tracing. They don’t want to divulge personal information because there is a huge lack of trust between public-health authorities and the public. That is a very bad thing, because contact tracing is critical for tackling some diseases. Let’s say that two years from now we have another pathogen, for which we require contact tracing. And say people don’t want to cooperate with the public-health agencies – that could have hugely detrimental effects.

Martin Kulldorff was speaking to Fraser Myers. You can sign the Great Barrington Declaration here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2602
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having an open letter expressing alternative opinions is a good idea, but they should be more careful how they administer it.

Quote:
The Great Barrington declaration, which was said to have been signed by more than 15,000 scientists and medical practitioners around the world, was found by Sky News to contain numerous false names, as well as those of several homeopaths.

Others listed include a resident at the “university of your mum” and another supposed specialist whose name was the first verse of the Macarena.

Sky News discovered 18 self-declared homeopaths in the list of expert names and more than 100 therapists whose expertise included massage, hypnotherapy and Mongolian khoomii singing.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/09/herd-immunity-letter-signed-fake-experts-dr-johnny-bananas-covid
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
Having an open letter expressing alternative opinions is a good idea, but they should be more careful how they administer it.

Quote:
The Great Barrington declaration, which was said to have been signed by more than 15,000 scientists and medical practitioners around the world, was found by Sky News to contain numerous false names, as well as those of several homeopaths.

Others listed include a resident at the “university of your mum” and another supposed specialist whose name was the first verse of the Macarena.

Sky News discovered 18 self-declared homeopaths in the list of expert names and more than 100 therapists whose expertise included massage, hypnotherapy and Mongolian khoomii singing.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/09/herd-immunity-letter-signed-fake-experts-dr-johnny-bananas-covid
What a pathetic slur.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6547
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So 118 out of 15000? Remind me again what constitutes a "Consensus"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2602
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
So 118 out of 15000? Remind me again what constitutes a "Consensus"?


The problem is that nobody knows how many signatures are genuine, it needs to be better administered or it risks losing credibility.

This version, opposed to the GBD, vets every signature.

https://www.johnsnowmemo.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 12348
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This very same tactic was used to try to discredit global warming science. It makes you wonder what sort of people are organising this letter, what their motives are and how much actual relevant scientific support they have if they have to include false signatures to make up the numbers.
_________________
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, you bullshitters:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

Covid19 Infections as of 17/10/20



Covid19 hospital admissions as of 1/10/20



Covid19 Deaths as of 17/10/20



Last edited by Little John on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh... and of course

NHS England has now changed the way it presents data on hospital admissions this week so it is much harder to determine the changes in admission rates between January and now.

The data is still there. But, now requires more digging to find

Surprise surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6547
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That up slope of your daily death chart from September to now could get very serious if it continues up through the winter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 8500
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
That up slope of your daily death chart from September to now could get very serious if it continues up through the winter.
Using the timing of the upslope in the first wave of infections as a benchmark, a second wave of hospitalizations and deaths accompanying a second wave of infections should have already been well underway. This is further corroborated by the data all across Europe - many parts of which are several weeks ahead of us in term of a second wave of infections - all of which show precisely the same lack of a significant rise in either deaths or hospitalizations accompanying a second wave of infections. Indeed, a number of them are now coming down the other side of that second wave of infections.

Don't believe me? Check the data for your self by country in terms of infections and deaths

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Oh, and by the way, to the extent there is a relatively small rise in deaths right now, a significant portion of even that is explained by the fact of that happening every year at this time anyway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6547
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps but both France and Germany show a similar rise though a flatter line. A straight tine progression on the UK graph would put you about 400 a day by new years day.I hope you avoid that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 489, 490, 491 ... 493, 494, 495  Next
Page 490 of 495

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group