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Fiddler's Ferry and other power stations are shutting down
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careful_eugene



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 549
Location: Nottingham UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Some did Chris. Battersea, for instance, heated a housing estate on the other side of the Thames for a number of years until it was decided to change heating supplier when the estate was modernised, I think it was. Slough Heat and Power supplied an industrial estate next door to it for quite a number of years, even when it was using chipped waste wood from local sources, until its closure a few years ago.

This is correct ( I once worked on this project), the water coming out of the tap was always scalding. When I was there during the late 90's the fuel used was approx 50% coal and 50% pelleted waste which was imported from Holland, apparently UK waste wasn't good enough.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

During its later years, C-E, Slough H & P used only wood chips and some waste. The wood chip was coming from as far away as West Berkshire and when they closed it collapsed the market for waste wood throughout the whole area.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today any efficiency analysis compares the proposal to just using the cheapest fossil fuel available and at present natural gas usually wins hands down. But take that NG away by carbon tax or other means and engineers will have to re compute the possibilities. For example waste hot water at a constant low temperature of 10C would be an excellent source of heat for heat pumps if the alternative was ambient air that varied from 10C to minus 40C. The heat pump can raise the temp to a higher desired temperature and having a steady supply makes sizing and the need for backups minimal.
The world where we have to fully investigate these options may not be that far in the future.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 599
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Today any efficiency analysis compares the proposal to just using the cheapest fossil fuel available and at present natural gas usually wins hands down. But take that NG away by carbon tax or other means and engineers will have to re compute the possibilities. For example waste hot water at a constant low temperature of 10C would be an excellent source of heat for heat pumps if the alternative was ambient air that varied from 10C to minus 40C. The heat pump can raise the temp to a higher desired temperature and having a steady supply makes sizing and the need for backups minimal.
The world where we have to fully investigate these options may not be that far in the future.


I don't agree with the first part of your analysis that gas is the cheapest fossil fuel in most countries but it may be in the US with domestic fracked gas. Generally gas turbine power plants are quicker, cheaper and easy to build and also quick to start (good for a market with high renewables penetration) so that in an electricity market they can be more profitable. I am still pretty sure that coal is the cheapest fossil fuel even in the states in terms of cost per MWhr generated - it is just not as flexible in output and has higher capital costs. It is just that in profitability gas wins.

I agree with you that even low grade heat is useful and can and should be used and taken into consideration for future designs of power plant.
To cut a long story short there is a good case to build any future power plants nearer to cities and make them so they can supply high temperature water even if people have to be compelled to take it instead of using electricity or local gas to make their hot water or steam.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:

I don't agree with the first part of your analysis that gas is the cheapest fossil fuel in most countries but it may be in the US with domestic fracked gas.

Even in the US coal is no longer cheapest once you add in the now required pollution retrofits. NG at European prices would still be cheaper then installing electrostatic participators on an old coal smoke stack.
The Trump administration is trying to change those equations but I expect that will be only a temporary reprieve and the trend toward NG and renewables will march on.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/01/german-utilities-firm-rwe-to-close-its-last-uk-coal-plant-in-2020

Aberthaw B to close a year early. Only 4 plants remaining after winter
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news for the environment, but rather worrying from the energy security point of view.
I hope that we will have enough renewable generation capacity and enough natural gas plant to replace the closed/soon to be closed coal burning plant.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Government overrules planning inspectorate to approve massive expansion of NG generating capacity by re-engineering old coal plant at Drax

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49960817

This will lead to considerably more NG capacity than the government's own plans require in the plan towards future CO2 emission reductions. The country will be faced with writing off a huge stranded asset or blowing apart or CO2 reduction strategy.

But it may be an insurance against new nuclear build plans falling apart.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this might be a discreet admission that new nuclear is not going to happen.
Battery storage is becoming increasingly relevant, due to the great advances in battery technology.
It seems unlikely however that batteries will ever be able to meet a significant proportion of national demand for a day or more.
Batteries are becoming useful for short term fluctuations, and to "bridge the gap" until gas turbine or diesel plant starts.
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