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Grid Battery Storage

 
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1129
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:46 pm    Post subject: Grid Battery Storage Reply with quote

It is quite disconcerting that apparently all the articles talking about grid battery storage and wind energy refer to the planned battery stores in terms of MW when I assume they mean MWh!

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1587063/batteries-included-uks-biggest-onshore-wind-farm-adds-50mw-storage

The quantity of energy storage, and volume of battery, anticipated is eye watering.

"A report from trade body RenewableUK in November 2018 found applications for energy storage projects had grown from 2MW in 2012, to 6.8GW in 2018.

The average size of these applications had also increase to 27MW in 2018 – highlighting the notable size of Iberdrola’s project.

RenewableUK's analysis followed a report by the Renewable Energy Association in late 2017, which found approximately 12GW of battery storage could be deployed in the UK by the end of 2021, a quarter of which could be co-located at wind farms."
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7238
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impressive.
I never expected battery storage on this scale to become viable.
Wind turbines are getting cheaper, batteries are getting cheaper.
The UK has one of the best wind resources in Europe, and with battery storage now becoming affordable, Wind power could meet MOST of our electricity needs.

Meanwhile new build nuclear is becoming more and more expensive, and receding further in the future.
And the existing nuclear plants are showing their age with output a record low this week.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1129
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even a letter to the Grauniad about the confusing reporting about this!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/14/battery-benefits-questioned

" Jillian Ambrose (Report, 11 June) claims that a 50MW battery system is a “significant step”. But how significant a step does not depend upon the instantaneous energy output in megawatts. Most significantly, it depends on how long it can keep this energy flow going. So the relevant measurement, to compare with rival systems, would be in MW hours (which are what we pay for in our electricity bills).
David Miller
(Emeritus professor of physics and astronomy at UCL), London"


Assuming a 50MWh battery store I wonder what would be a reasonable maximum charge/discharge rate to achieve a sensible battery life? I would guess 5-10 MW. This begs the question as to how much impact this would actually have on the operation of a 200MW wind farm?

Also I wonder how close A2 would like to get to a large Lion battery store like this whilst it was operating? (especially at a peak power output of 50MW).

Coincidentally I happened to bump into a engineer working on off shore wind farms recently who mentioned that the biggest current turbines being installed are rated at a whopping 7MW!
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As these are lithium batteries they are able to accept very high discharge rates. Much higher than lead acid batteries.
I would expect that a 50 Mwh battery could supply 50Mw.

That should be of considerable assistance, remembering that many such batteries are planned.

Large lithium batteries make me a little nervous, but hopefully proper precautions will be taken to avoid accidents.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I cannot discern is the strategic purpose of these battery stores considering the small storage capacity in relation to rated wind farm power output. So a 20MWh store will only have a very small, unnoticeable, smoothing effect on the output of a 200 MW wind farm representing only 6 minutes of production at rated output.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5272
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A contractor I am working with at present has built a couple of "sub Stations" for electric distribution companies locally. There purpose was to take "Dirty power" from wind farms and clean it up so it could be added to the grid. By "dirty" they mean un synchronized as to cycle and wave length etc. A battery set up would let you store power for the milliseconds needed to match the cycles of the grid. At least that is my non electrical engineer understanding of it.
The contractor and his crew were doing the site work and concrete foundations and didn't need to understand how the machines they were bolting down function.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 922
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The safe peak output is also of interest eg 50Mw if they are using it to provide grid stability under varying load. I think we have mentioned before the increasing risk of voltage swings due to less constant generators and fewer resistive loads.

As an energy bank, IMO it's just more hyped spending based on ultra low interest rates.

File under taxis and pizzas for phone rubbing hipsters.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A total battery capacity, spread over numerous sites, of say 1Gwh and able to supply 1Gw for 30 minutes would be very useful indeed.

The national grid are required to maintain a steady voltage and frequency, even in the event of a sudden loss of generation or import capacity.
Historically this was achieved by coal burning steam turbine plant that could respond in a fraction of a second to any increase in demand or loss of supply.
10 steam turbine units each of say 500Mw capacity could at a moments notice supply at least an extra 500Mw if something tripped or broke.

With the run down of steam turbine capacity, this flexibility is being lost.

A large battery or a collection of batteries in different locations would be useful.
We import a lot of electricity from mainland Europe, and the sudden loss of say 1Gw of this supply can be challenging.
A battery that can take the place of the broken interconnector, or a tripped nuclear plant, for perhaps 30 minutes is very useful.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
...............A battery that can take the place of the broken interconnector, or a tripped nuclear plant, for perhaps 30 minutes is very useful.


And, I presume, switchable from a central location.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
adam2 wrote:
...............A battery that can take the place of the broken interconnector, or a tripped nuclear plant, for perhaps 30 minutes is very useful.


And, I presume, switchable from a central location.
And then of course hack able from a remote location.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
adam2 wrote:
...............A battery that can take the place of the broken interconnector, or a tripped nuclear plant, for perhaps 30 minutes is very useful.


And, I presume, switchable from a central location.
And then of course hack able from a remote location.


Perhaps the power companies should invest in a closed system that can't be accessed from the internet.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5272
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
adam2 wrote:
...............A battery that can take the place of the broken interconnector, or a tripped nuclear plant, for perhaps 30 minutes is very useful.


And, I presume, switchable from a central location.
And then of course hack able from a remote location.


Perhaps the power companies should invest in a closed system that can't be accessed from the internet.

Yes this is more important then choosing between wind or solar or coal or gas . The security of whatever power sources we choose to use in the future is at least as important as the source of the power.
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