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Extreme prep ? nuclear bunker.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 392
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My house is not really practical to have a fallout shelter. Being made of wood and elevated off the ground it would also not provide much protection longer term against radiation. At a push I have thought of breaking through the concrete under the garage and building something there but I have other priorities.

I could rely on the fact that Australia would be a either a long way from a nuclear war's main theatres of operations or the fact that I am about 100 miles as the crow flies from the major city in our state, and presumably the main target.

For me it is not a major priority at the moment. If a nuclear armed state were to go rogue and be taken over by terrorists - Pakistan would be the prime candidate - I may change my mind. Even then I understand they have fewer than 200 weapons the majority of whom would no doubt fall on India, Israel and possibly the US they have the range and capability, I don't think Australia would warrant more than a few, if any.

For Australia, Russia's nukes are probably the main threat and will be for the next 20 years because there are so many of them. For all the posturing, Putin is not a nutter, in fact probably the most calculating leader there is at the moment.

The house I build in the next 20-30 years probably will have a nuclear bunker, however.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
He was unwilling to go higher than that as he believes that he can build a new and arguably better bunker for about that much.


Wonder how the planning system would view such an application. On the face of it there's nothing really to object to.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
adam2 wrote:
He was unwilling to go higher than that as he believes that he can build a new and arguably better bunker for about that much.


Wonder how the planning system would view such an application. On the face of it there's nothing really to object to.


I rather doubt that any planning application will be made.
If the facility is below ground, it no more needs planning permission than does a septic tank or indeed a basement extension.

AFAIK, the intention is to dig a hole, build a reinforced concrete box within the hole and fill the hole in again.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
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Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
clv101 wrote:
adam2 wrote:
He was unwilling to go higher than that as he believes that he can build a new and arguably better bunker for about that much.


Wonder how the planning system would view such an application. On the face of it there's nothing really to object to.


I rather doubt that any planning application will be made.
If the facility is below ground, it no more needs planning permission than does a septic tank or indeed a basement extension.

AFAIK, the intention is to dig a hole, build a reinforced concrete box within the hole and fill the hole in again.


I always thought that with the Daily Mail always going on about 'billionaire basements' in London that planning permission was required?
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
clv101 wrote:
adam2 wrote:
He was unwilling to go higher than that as he believes that he can build a new and arguably better bunker for about that much.


Wonder how the planning system would view such an application. On the face of it there's nothing really to object to.


I rather doubt that any planning application will be made.
If the facility is below ground, it no more needs planning permission than does a septic tank or indeed a basement extension.

AFAIK, the intention is to dig a hole, build a reinforced concrete box within the hole and fill the hole in again.


They come under "Engineering works", as does a swimming pool, and should have planning permission last time I heard.
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Lurkalot



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:


AFAIK, the intention is to dig a hole, build a reinforced concrete box within the hole and fill the hole in again.


At least that sentence didn't include the word "just" , just dig a hole.
I've worked on jobs where new basement areas have been constructed and for even a relatively small area ( toilets , small storage room and an even smaller electrical room /cupboard) there was a considerable amount of excavation. I'm not sure of the legalities of putting in a bunker but the subject of " can I secretly put one in" has cropped up on the internet a few times as has the other very often asked question of " can I bury a shipping container to use as a bunker" . Same answer for both questions.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shipping containers are most unsuitable as buried shelters, the strength is largely in the corners and along the edges. The roof is very liable to collapse, either promptly or more gradually, under the weight of covering.

I have heard of shelters being built that use shipping containers as formwork or a temporary support for reinforced concrete built around them, that can work well but is liable to rust.

In this case, construction will be entirely of reinforced concrete with walls and ceiling a minimum of 0.5m thick.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have thought that if you put 50 to 100 mm of insulation around the outside of the container before the concrete that would stop most of the rusting happening and also make the room much more comfortable. The ground is permanently at 10 to 15 deg C so your room would be the same if not heated. The metal walls would be covered in condensation causing rust, mould and dampness if not insulated.
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Lurkalot



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only mentioned the shipping containers because it comes up pretty often when the subject of bunkers is discussed. As Adam says their biggest problem is that of strength , the roof in particular is not really meant to support tons of soil. I have heard of using them as some sort of shutter to pour the concrete around but it's hardly an ideal method.
On the job where we put in the basement the process was to dig out a large excavation and put in the floor slab ( which I think had insulation under it) , then the walls were formed using steel shutter and finally the roof section. The hole was probably a good metre wider all the way round , and wider at the top , sloping sides rather than vertical , to allow insulation to be attached to the outside and then finally back filled with soil.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be very wary indeed about thermally insulating a fallout shelter.
Such structures are likely be overcrowded by normal peacetime domestic standards, and are also likely to have limited ventilation.

Naturally cool, and with vast thermal mass is in my view far preferable to any risk of overheating.
Shelter stocks should include plenty of wool blankets, 4 per person as a minimum, and warm clothing.

I would fit an electric dehumidifier to avoid damp. It is unlikely that electricity would be available during an emergency, but keeping everything dry whilst times are normal is good.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the heat doesn't get you the damp and mould will. I suppose it depends on how long you think that you will be in there.

The concrete over the roof of a container would have to be reinforced and the container used just as shuttering and, depending on the water table, the walls and floor might need it as well.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shelter in question will be entirely of reinforced concrete, walls and roof at least 0.5m thick.
The exact nature of the use is unknown, but it is being designed on the basis of 24/7 shelter for 8 persons for 28 days.

Mains electricity whilst times are normal, batteries for backup power, and fuel cells under consideration for any prolonged emergency.

When not in use it will be largely airtight and kept dry by electric dehumidifiers.
When in use, filtered fresh air to be supplied by a blower.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know why you would need a half meter of concrete. If you are talking about being nuclear radiation safe you need three feet of earth cover over your structure. A properly built shelter with 100mm (4 inches) of reinforced concrete in it's walls and roof could easily hold that much cover.
The ideal bunker would be built into a hillside with it's long axis parallel to the contour lines so that the average depth of cover was perhaps four and a half feet depending on the slope of the surrounding ground and the front top line of the box having three feet of cover front to back.
This same bunker could have a drilled well in it's back corner that brought up ground water with a hand pump and on the other end a waste pipe that exited away out to a point far enough away as to not contaminate the water well and into a ditch or dry well or even a septic system so that it did not give away the presence of the bunker.
If dug into a wooded area you would probably have to put a woods road or food plot over it to explain to passers by the gap in the tree cover..
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
I would be very wary indeed about thermally insulating a fallout shelter.


Additoinally, the ground remaining at 10º to 15º only applies if there is no heat source. As soon as there is a heat source there will be a thermal gradient, and the temperature in the bunker will rise. Then either ventilation or a heat pump will be needed to control the temperature.


Quote:
I would fit an electric dehumidifier to avoid damp. It is unlikely that electricity would be available during an emergency, but keeping everything dry whilst times are normal is good.


Dehumidifiers do not work well at cellar type temperatures, nor at the humidity levels that are comfortale. The performance figures frrom the manufacturers apply when the temperatures are quite high, and the humidity is round near precipitation levels. They are also heat sources. This means ventilation will be needed, and once you have adequate ventilation, you won’t need a dehumidifier.
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Lurkalot



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to construction a quick search brings up some using precast sectional concrete tubing to build bunkers. It has the advantage of being quicker to construct and is of course designed to go underground although I'm sure there are disadvantages too.
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