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George with belated name dropping.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9777
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the current $47.98 per barrel oil price works its way through the shale oil industry and the companies lose their finance, stop drilling and go bust, if we don't have a worldwide mega recession, the cost of oil will rise again, hopefully, to levels where it will be more economic to employ more people in agriculture
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"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
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kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9777
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
I challenge anyone to grow scorzonera without deep digging at harvest time.


Or spuds! We try to only turn our soil when we harvest the spuds, once every six years. We can get most roots out by just easing the soil around the weed with a fork and pulling.

We've just acquired enough concrete panels from an old precast garage to raise the soil level in four or five more of our 10m x 1.2m raised beds. That will involve digging the edge of the bed down about 200mm and backfilling to set the panel in place. It shouldn't affect the centre of the bed though and we'll raise the soil level gently by the addition of compost every so often.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
As the current $47.98 per barrel oil price works its way through the shale oil industry and the companies lose their finance, stop drilling and go bust, if we don't have a worldwide mega recession, the cost of oil will rise again, hopefully, to levels where it will be more economic to employ more people in agriculture


We're way past the point of waiting for some kind of financial parity or pseudo viability, this, industrialised game, was only ever temporary and for as long as we've been playing it, we've been bring about an ecological and societal imperative in doing it alternatively.

Besides....
"It is very, very, very serious indeed. This is the big one!"

'Professor Tim Lang, APPGOPO, 25/03/08. And he was talking about food, not oil or the economy!'
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't think of a better use for fossil fuel than to turn compacted land into productive land.

Plough it full of shit, then let nature look after it forever.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4251
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:


You've previously ran permaculture systems and then came away from them?

No.-- I haven't seen one that did not appear to be more hype then fact.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
Sometimes, I would love to deprive certain people of fossil fuels for a few years.

Some would tolerate that better then others. Cool

The till or no till debate goes on of course. Some seem to think you could stop all tillage without the use of chemicals and still have enough food to go around. That is just not going to happen. Then others in mortal fear of any chemical use go to "Organic" farming only to find that tillage and mid season cultivation is required and that each pass causes erosion. Add in some insect and fungus attacks and profitability goes out the window.
Farmers do indeed have tough choices to make.


There is no debate on till or no till, other than the processes we need to go through to stop doing it, we can also convert to biofertilisers and produce enough food, there's already enough being produced to feed twice the global population. "Organic" is a misnomer and even the leading lights (such as Holden) of the initial movement now accept it was a misguided effort of non solution, organic tilling, for instance, is an oxymoron and any monocrop is more vulnerable and susceptible, due to their lack of diversity, to natural regulation, in fact....they're sitting ducks without their chemical armour, which of course, nature just comes back at as hard as it takes until things are systemically redressed, the form of which is more commonly referred to as pests or dis-ease.

The choice for he farmer isn't that difficult at all, the choice is....we work with nature, or....we fight with futility and lose anyway, that's the choice.
The choice a farmer has today is to use what methods produce a crop at a profit or choose to use non chemical means and end up loosing money and in the end lose the farm which will be bought up by big corporate AG which will then revert to all chemical all the time.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:


You've previously ran permaculture systems and then came away from them?

No.-- I haven't seen one that did not appear to be more hype then fact.

The hype is, how to best use photosynthesis and retain energy.

You could always go and visit Ben, who I suggested to you some time ago. Which others have you seen?

http://www.newforestfarm.net/

http://www.ridgedalepermaculture.com/


'French Gvt passes new law recognising the importance of agroecology'

http://www.campaignforrealfarming.org/2014/10/french-gvt-passes-new-law-recognising-the-importance-of-agroecology/
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
Sometimes, I would love to deprive certain people of fossil fuels for a few years.

Some would tolerate that better then others. Cool

The till or no till debate goes on of course. Some seem to think you could stop all tillage without the use of chemicals and still have enough food to go around. That is just not going to happen. Then others in mortal fear of any chemical use go to "Organic" farming only to find that tillage and mid season cultivation is required and that each pass causes erosion. Add in some insect and fungus attacks and profitability goes out the window.
Farmers do indeed have tough choices to make.


There is no debate on till or no till, other than the processes we need to go through to stop doing it, we can also convert to biofertilisers and produce enough food, there's already enough being produced to feed twice the global population. "Organic" is a misnomer and even the leading lights (such as Holden) of the initial movement now accept it was a misguided effort of non solution, organic tilling, for instance, is an oxymoron and any monocrop is more vulnerable and susceptible, due to their lack of diversity, to natural regulation, in fact....they're sitting ducks without their chemical armour, which of course, nature just comes back at as hard as it takes until things are systemically redressed, the form of which is more commonly referred to as pests or dis-ease.

The choice for he farmer isn't that difficult at all, the choice is....we work with nature, or....we fight with futility and lose anyway, that's the choice.
The choice a farmer has today is to use what methods produce a crop at a profit or choose to use non chemical means and end up loosing money and in the end lose the farm which will be bought up by big corporate AG which will then revert to all chemical all the time.


That's a trap, not a choice, it's certainly not an economic model.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4251
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
I can't think of a better use for fossil fuel than to turn compacted land into productive land.

Plough it full of shit, then let nature look after it forever.
With you on that but it takes constant care to replace what the crops extract if you want a crop each year.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4251
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:


That's a trap, not a choice, it's certainly not an economic model.

But it is the reality that most American farmers are facing. Average age of an American farmer is above 60 years old and their children for the most part have moved up to non AG jobs so when Dad retires or dies the farm will go up for sale and at today's prices only corporate AG will be able to buy the farm.
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