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Trompe.....
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18553
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh well, Bill's lecture was jolly entertaining anyway. Smile
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4219
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Oh well, Bill's lecture was jolly entertaining anyway. Smile
He is rather funny. He thinks people in Kentucky drink gin.His other error is thinking the water will rise back up on it's own to the level it was dropped from. Basic hydraulics will tell you that is not going to happen without restricting the rate of fall of the input water through the trumpe to zero. I don't know about his claim of compressed air cars going 300 miles on two cubic feet of air compressed to 1000 psi. They could certainly go some distance and that would be controlled by the weight of the loaded car and the efficiency of the compressed air driven drive line. I've watched air driven rock drills move themselves and their compressor in tow over work sites for years so motion is certainly possible. It is just a question of how much. I wonder how much a filling station would charge you for two cubic feet of air compressed to 1000 psi?
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes A goggle search on air powered cars shows nothing promising. Also looking at some of the related You tube videos on trumps show some idiots that clearly don't know what they are talking about. You have to wonder about what institution of higher learning charged students for the privilege of attending these lectures and conferred degrees for successful completion of the course.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Rolling Eyes A goggle search on air powered cars shows nothing promising. Also looking at some of the related You tube videos on trumps show some idiots that clearly don't know what they are talking about. You have to wonder about what institution of higher learning charged students for the privilege of attending these lectures and conferred degrees for successful completion of the course.


It's 'Trompe'.


http://www.aircaraccess.com/history.htm

'The term "air engine" disappeared from engineering textbooks between 1931 when William Lawrence Saunders died, and the end of the second world war. Gas engines had been perfected, the power of the oil industry was established, and gas was cheap. After Saunders' sudden death while he was on vacation, a new CEO of Ingersoll-Rand was chosen who was paranoid, secretive, wouldn't allow himself to be photographed, and turned in his annual financial report on a single sheet of paper folded in half. With certain key phrases and concepts no longer mentioned in textbooks, interest in air cars dwindled. Ingersoll-Rand's official publication as the largest compressed air corporation in the world, Compressed Air magazine, grew fashionably aloof from compressed air and almost never mentioned air cars. The oil glut was in full swing; nothing as simple as a better idea was going to stop that'
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Oh well, Bill's lecture was jolly entertaining anyway. Smile
He is rather funny. He thinks people in Kentucky drink gin.His other error is thinking the water will rise back up on it's own to the level it was dropped from. Basic hydraulics will tell you that is not going to happen without restricting the rate of fall of the input water through the trumpe to zero. I don't know about his claim of compressed air cars going 300 miles on two cubic feet of air compressed to 1000 psi. They could certainly go some distance and that would be controlled by the weight of the loaded car and the efficiency of the compressed air driven drive line. I've watched air driven rock drills move themselves and their compressor in tow over work sites for years so motion is certainly possible. It is just a question of how much. I wonder how much a filling station would charge you for two cubic feet of air compressed to 1000 psi?


Interestingly.......you'll find a fair few university studies of the 'Trompe' and similar online.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13828
Location: way out west

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Trompe..... Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
'Bill Mollison explains what a trompe is and how compressed air can provide limitless amounts of clean energy using technology we have had for hundreds of years'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9NqqDL6bkk


Bill does ramble with the figures from time to time, but...the principal is sound enough.
The Trompe is well enough known in permaculture circles, I question why I've read nothing about it on forums such as this, or indeed heard 'Green' folk tout it's potential?

Anyway...the video is good for the craic of Bills style if nothing else.


"a bleddy gryte freezah"

What an amazing concept. It can't work because it's too cheap. Wink
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5229
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

technology demo of a compressed air hybrid car.

http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/citroen-concept-refits-c4-cactus-production-model-for-118-mpg/

Claims a weight advantage over a battery electric hybrid, presumably the
high pressure cylinder scales better.

Could easily be made plug in for compressed air only range.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Trompe..... Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:


What an amazing concept. It can't work because it's too cheap. Wink
Actually it works but it is cheap only where you have a good hydro site where you can let water fall a hundred feet or more. Unfortunately there are very few sites that meet that requirement. If your trompe was 100 feet high it would yield air compressed to 43 psi. If you had plenty of water you could run a secondary compressor powered by either some of the compressed air or the tail water turning a Pelton wheel to step up the pressure to what ever was needed.
Once you stop using free falling water to do the work and replace it with electric or ICE driven pumps you are just indulging in energy conversions and storage which may be useful but certainly not free energy or necessarily cheaper then straight ICE. drive trains.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds an interesting thing if a little inefficient. Serious doomers may want an alternative to an emergency electrical system that is resistant to EMP and compressed air may fit the bill but with a lack of suitable hydro sites it may be hard to implement. Maybe a hydro-powered air compressor is more appropriate.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3323

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2568732/Car-runs-air-set-hit-streets-year-Peugeot-claims-new-hybrid-117mpg.html
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2568732/Car-runs-air-set-hit-streets-year-Peugeot-claims-new-hybrid-117mpg.html

This diserves it's own thread as it has nothing to do with last years trompe dicussion beyond that they are using compressed air.
A very interesting and perhaps practical way to get around the waste of fuel sitting in congested city traffic. Not free energy of course just a more efficent use of the energy in the gasoline.
A test crash where the high pressure storage tank is ruptured would be an interesting video.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13828
Location: way out west

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2568732/Car-runs-air-set-hit-streets-year-Peugeot-claims-new-hybrid-117mpg.html


Use helium and and the idea could take off.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
woodburner wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2568732/Car-runs-air-set-hit-streets-year-Peugeot-claims-new-hybrid-117mpg.html


Use helium and and the idea could take off.

Rolling Eyes The hydrogen concept flamed out.
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