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Europe in 20 years
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isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NET = Network of European Technocrats

<< is that anything like the notion of 'Netocracy'>>

No, at least not from your description. Technocracy can be considered as science applied to society and as a plan for society. I put a bit up on technocracy here:

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/portal/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=943&Itemid=2

Smile
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The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/


Last edited by isenhand on Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at N.America following the attacks of 9/11. The 9 months prior to that date saw George Bush lose control of the Senate and his approval rating plummet. He did nothing for the American people during that time. Only when 9/11 happened was he able to take control (or appear to take control since he is just a puppet in the grand scheme of things) and exploit a nation in shock which in turn catapulted him and his party into the limelight. There was no education and certainly no debate over how America and its people should react and move on into the future. If there had been education and debate about the cause and actions over 9/11, the people of America and the World might well have reacted differently, but of course that's not want the Neo-cons wanted.

If you read Richard Heinberg's book 'Powerdown', he talks about the Neo-con movement in America to which Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheny, Rumsfeld et al belong. In the Neo-con manifesto/programme there are number of basic ideas, one being that political stability can only be maintained if it is united against an external threat and if no threat exists one should be invented (think of 9/11 again and read into that what you will). This runs parallel to what Enrique is saying about how people follow the primary power in order to ensure that their own security remains intact; something which has been repeated time and time again throughout history.

Interestingly, the other Neo-con ideas are;

- the leader must always deceive the people
- the leader does not need to conform to any moral code
- religion should be used to bind the people together
- Secularism should not be allowed as 'it leads to critical thinking and dissent'

These beliefs are not only apparent in America today, but are fast becoming the norm in British politics also. I do believe that we are seeing the first move towards the changes Enrique envisages and it's no coincidence that the timing matches the social problems of aging and global competition Enrique refers to. I do believe that the politicians are aware of PO and other problems associated with population growth, climate change and so on but I don't believe they will ever discuss this with the people they serve for fear of revolution. I agree with Damian that there should be an active education programme but I feel that this will only come from the efforts of Damain and others (hopefully myself included). Sadly, however, I think our voice will be too small for the masses to react to.
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isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does that not then strength the argument for forming self-sufficient committees and networks of such communities?
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Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
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fishertrop



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 859
Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enrique wrote:

...and could not be before we have finished our energy survey [in 2010 most likely].


What is the survey and what is it's purpose?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that it does but it must be done so in a way that does not trigger disapproval from the bulk of the population. In my opinion, that will be very hard to do although I agree it should not stop us from trying. My concern is that just as we are seeing exploitation of the race and religion card over 7/7, the same strategy could be employed by any government to discriminate against any break away group or community by using the right propaganda and fear strategy.
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isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technocracy as a plan was developed over 70 years ago and is for the US. It could do with some updating and, if needed, adaptation to Europe. One of the first things to do along that line is to look at the resources / energy supply of Europe and see if it would be possible for some or all of the nations in Europe to join together to be self-sufficient and that is what the energy survey is about.

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Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
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RogerCO



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 672
Location: Cornwall, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrkinnies wrote:
In the Neo-con manifesto/programme there are number of basic ideas, one being that political stability can only be maintained if it is united against an external threat and if no threat exists one should be invented ...
- the leader must always deceive the people
- the leader does not need to conform to any moral code
- religion should be used to bind the people together
- Secularism should not be allowed as 'it leads to critical thinking and dissent'

There used to be a word to describe that set of beliefs...it was called Fascism (see definition here). My parents' generation were involved in a war to stop its spread.

I'm starting to wonder if a pluralist, secular, open/free, equal, and sustainable society is even possible at the level of the nation state, never mind the global state.

Is the next step to say that the end of cheap energy and the consequent disruption to the global project is a good thing and should be hastened.

If you don't want a descent into Fascism, or at least the sort of European future that Enrique describes then it is your duty to consume - or perhaps destroy - as much oil as possible so as to hasten the decline into a much smaller (community based) society - one based on Acquaintanceship rather than stranger relations. One that is much smaller than today's nations - perhaps 1000-5000 people as the basic organisational unit.

Really I'm saying that we have not yet developed as individuals far enough to enable us to run a planet as a non-fascist community. We need to back off and re-educate and enlighten ourselves in a more basic level of society before we make another stab at becoming an advanced civilization - and we need to do that fast while we've still got a planet to practice on.

I guess come October I could be thrown in jail in the UK for promoting the idea of destroying oil installations...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree RogerCO.

Fascism hides within politics under a cloak of artificial liberalism and freedom. If you read the following recent article from the BBC, it's easy to see how dictatorial we in the West can be. It is of course only one example and I post it only because it is current news but it demonstartes the double standards we live by yet remain ignorant of.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4696961.stm (This article is about African and US subsidies. It's amazing how America allows free trade of petroleum goods from Africa but few, if any, agricultural goods).
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isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerCO, that?s a sad refection on the human condition Sad Is it really true I wonder or is it just a product of our current socioeconomic system? If the system was changed would your observations be invalid? An example of more positive behaviour that would indicate we can for such communities for the future is projects like Linux, fan fiction and films. Here we have people working together, could that not be an indicator of the future?

Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
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RogerCO



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 672
Location: Cornwall, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isenhand wrote:
RogerCO, that?s a sad refection on the human condition Sad Is it really true I wonder or is it just a product of our current socioeconomic system? If the system was changed would your observations be invalid? An example of more positive behaviour that would indicate we can for such communities for the future is projects like Linux, fan fiction and films. Here we have people working together, could that not be an indicator of the future?Smile

Yes there are reasons to believe that we can rise above this level and the examples you quote are good (possibly even inspiring).

I think what I'm getting to is that within the current socio-economic system it is impossible for such behaviours to become mainstream - the fascist tendency/will to power/base human nature or whatever you want to label it, is driving too hard in a contary anti-libertarian direction and provides too much (percieved) short term gain at the individual level.

What is required is a paradigm shift (anyone playing buzz-word bingo in here!); an evolutionary step change in general human consciousness to enable us to create an advanced civilization.

The examples you mention (and others) give me hope and belief that it is possible, but I know that today, more often than not, I will give in to the short term personal gain - despite knowing the long term personal harm of my actions. And I don't think that most people are that much different.

What industrial civilization and improved physical and educational well-being has given us is the ability to experience and express the world in a richer way. I think we now need to take those skills and abilities and use them within a more basic form of social organisation to re-invent the more complex interactions that will form an advanced (post-oil, post-industrial) civilization.

If small sustainable communities can be built which maintain and enhance today's average level of 'intelligence' then there is real hope for the future of mankind. I feel that my own education and development can only proceed by being in such a place. Sometimes it is necessary to take a pace back before taking two steps forward.
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isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<< I think what I'm getting to is that within the current socio-economic system it is impossible for such behaviours to become mainstream>>

Yes, this is something that worries me. The idea of networking communities + education I would hope will address this problem but even then the current system may stop that.

<< I think we now need to take those skills and abilities and use them within a more basic form of social organisation to re-invent the more complex interactions that will form an advanced (post-oil, post-industrial) civilization.>>

I think we are thinking along similar lines here. Again, network of self-sufficient communities for the short term but I would have my eye on technocracy in the long term. To me, that is using our heads and thinking rationally about what we are doing. But I also feel I?m on the side of the minority.

<< If small sustainable communities can be built which maintain and enhance today's average level of 'intelligence' then there is real hope for the future of mankind. I feel that my own education and development can only proceed by being in such a place. Sometimes it is necessary to take a pace back before taking two steps forward.>>

You said it Smile I don?t think I could have said it better. Now, how to make it happen?

Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
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